5ちゃんねる ★スマホ版★ ■掲示板に戻る■ 全部 1- 最新50  

■ このスレッドは過去ログ倉庫に格納されています

Rape of Nanking (Iris Chang)

1 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 03:15:36 ID:dxkRQ6eT
Rape of Nanking (Iris Chang) に付いての
アメリカ及び英語圏のニュースと掲示板の動向を研究するスレッド。
英文の注目サイトと日本側の英文反論文の収集、留学生への英文での反論アドバイス等
英文の総合スレッドにしよう。

<amazon book> Rape of Nanking  book review の投稿に注目
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140277447/qid=1101489504/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-3589861-2704113

<Yahoo News> Rape of Nanking 掲示板に注目
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041111/us_nm/arts_literature_chang_dc_3

自由主義史観の英文反論文
http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/nanjing/contents.html

Nanking : Anatomy of an Atrocity by Masahiro Yamamoto ($68.95 高い)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0275969045/qid=1101490044/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-3589861-2704113?v=glance&s=books

The Nanjing Massacre in History and Historiography  by Joshua A. Fogel, Charles S. Maier
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520220072/qid=1101490044/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-3589861-2704113?v=glance&s=books


2 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 07:12:38 ID:7tlPwlm2
2でもとるか

3 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 08:29:52 ID:RJj10oFJ
>>1
少しリンク先の解説ヨロ。

4 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 09:07:37 ID:L1IN2JFy
>>3
このスレを立てた理由は
アマゾンの書評で中国人の書き込みに反論する人が必要。
少しずつだけど次々に新しい書き込みがあるので応戦が必要。
<amazon book> Rape of Nanking  book review の投稿に注目
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140277447/qid=1101489504/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-3589861-2704113

もう一つ↓こちらのスレの1のコメントが品位に欠ける+もうすぐ1000に達する
「レイプ・オブ・ナンキン」の著者自殺
http://tmp4.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/asia/1100144181/l50

この件について米、欧で何かあるたびに単発的なスレが立つがもっと
長期的、総合的に英文の反論の仕方等を研究する総合スレとしたいからです。

その他関連掲示板等があったら次スレのテンプレに追加。

下の三つは英文反論の基本サンプル。


5 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 09:11:27 ID:L1IN2JFy
アマゾン書評 (短い反論)

The way people talk should tell something about them, November 26, 2004

Why are those Japanese bashers so ignorant and barbaric?
And why are those critical of Iris Chang more frequently educated and civil?
This should tell something about Iris Chang too.

6 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 09:14:16 ID:L1IN2JFy
もう一つの短い反論

Iris Chang was a mouthpiece for the Chinese Cummunist Party, November 25, 2004

Iris Chang's "The Rape of Nanking" is a re-writing of "The Nanking Capture by
Japanese Army-Occupation and Massacre" published in 1995 under the supervision
of Chi Peng-fei, former deputy premier and foreign minister of the Red China.

Iris Chang's claims are exactly same as the Chinese Cummunist Party's.

Although she might not be a communist, the articles she wrote are exactly what
Chinese government would wish to propagate in the world, especially USA.

------------------------------------------------------------
アイリス・チャンの自殺直後は中国人の書き込みが殺到。
最近気づいた日本人がやっと反論の書き込みを始めていくらか目に付くが
過去2週間ぐらいはアイリス・チャンの支持書き込みばかりでした。



7 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 09:20:32 ID:L1IN2JFy
<Yahoo News> Rape of Nanking 掲示板に注目
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041111/us_nm/arts_literature_chang_dc_3

もう一つ US Yahoo の掲示板でも常にこれ関連の掲示板がいくつかある。
US Yahoo ではニュースが出るたびにそのニュースに関連した掲示板に書き込みができる。
今回は自殺のニュースについての掲示板が賑わっている。

8 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 09:34:58 ID:L1IN2JFy
ヤフーの掲示板での客観的な観察

How accurate was her book?  by: flatusm 11/11/04 04:05 pm
Msg: 104 of 328 2 recommendations

To me, many of the examples read like fever dreams, examples of what would happen if purely
evil people with purely evil intentions had full reign to try and outdo one another in atrocity.

Real atrocity is more mundane and less elaborate. The beheadings in Iraq, or the machine
gunnings at Mai Lai, for example. Even the Nazi medical experiments and death camp horrors
were just getting on with business.

Rape, I understand. Soldiers gang-raping, sure. But what kind of a demento cuts a woman's
breast off? Did the entire Japanese army consist of Jeffrey Dahmer / John Wayne Gacy types?
I doubt it.

Now, I can possibly see that press-ganged soldiers that had been in miserable, crazy-making
conditions for months, fighting against an enemy they had been propagandized to despise since
childhood might, MIGHT be goaded into some of these bizarre actions.

But now that this woman has proven herself degenerate enough to leave her two year old without
a mother over selfish depression, I question her research. It seems to me more likely the demons
she wrote about were in her own head.

9 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 09:42:35 ID:L1IN2JFy
>>8
↑上記の書き込みに対する返事
Re: How accurate was her book? by: brandre (60/M/York PA) 11/11/04 04:33 pm
Msg: 164 of 328  3 recommendations

It depends on what you call accurate. The horror that the Japanese
heaped on the chinese paled the horror the germans heaped on Jews.

Over 25 million Chinese were killed. In Nanking they were driven into
the river to drown. The Japs have no idea how many they killed.
They didn't care. They were not worth counting. Japan was the super race.
All others were not worth living...

-------------------------------------------
2千500万人殺されたそうです(w

10 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 10:13:20 ID:8QYfv5jx
英語板にも同じようなスレあるしwikiのスレもおそらく主張することは同じだと思うが・・・
つーかここに立てても無駄だと思うよ。英語板の方に行った方がいい。

11 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 10:25:23 ID:L1IN2JFy
>>10
英語版なんかニュースや時事問題に興味のある人はあまり見てないと思う。

12 :南京大虐殺、その捏造の過程:04/11/27 10:51:23 ID:FztTa56o
国際派日本人養成講座編
事実と論理の力
http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~nippon/jogbd_h11_1/jog079.html
先入観を打破する定量的検証を
http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~nippon/jogbd_h9/jog015.htm
平気でうそをつく人々
http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~nippon/jogbd_h10_1/jog028.html


13 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 11:03:09 ID:R3bwQ8R2
>>11
確かに英語板じゃ盛り上がらない。

14 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 16:27:39 ID:YZfR36Jn
▼参加心得
(1)根拠の無い発言には、何度でも懇切丁寧冷酷に論破するのが鉄の掟。
(2)ソース第一、理論的に討論すべし。
(3)嫌中厨は日本から罵倒し追い詰めて、判断力が 有ることは示しておく余裕。
(4)下手な英語でも、文法に沿った丁寧な英語を心がけるべし。
(5)総論を決めるのは観衆のみ、己の誇りと雄弁を持って語り掛けるべし。
(6)海外掲示板は、己の行動が日本の民度だということを肝に銘じて心得よ。
----------------------------------
NAVER から借りてきた

15 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/27 16:43:20 ID:YZfR36Jn
▼反論方法
―南京の人口と中国が主張する被害者数の矛盾を解説。
―中国が発表する被害者数の戦後の変遷を解説
―中国の政治・文化の伝統を説明する。
―日本の50年前を非難する中国が現在チベット弾圧を行っていることを追求。
―中国が反日政策を強化した理由。
―中国が反日政策を強化した時期とアイリスチャンの本の出版時期との一致。
―日本が行った戦後補償とODA の金額。
―なぜアメリカで中国の主張が歓迎されたのか(原爆と相殺したいのではないか)。

16 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 03:44:59 ID:3EmTUXYj
使えそうな反論例(1):日本軍にはアリバイがある

The Japanese Army Had Good, Solid Alibi in Nanking,
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A3J8HNLD1GQK/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-9670402-4380601?%5Fencoding=UTF8

17 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 03:47:32 ID:3EmTUXYj
使えそうな反論例(2):南京の人口推移

The Author's Sad Death Doesn't Make Propaganda A Truth
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AD2R63RQVC0X/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-9670402-4380601?%5Fencoding=UTF8

部分
To anyone who insists that there ARE plenty of eyewitness evidences,
I strongly recommend to read the book "Eyewitnesses to Massacre" by Zhang Kaiyuan.
This book consists of diaries and letters of Americans who remained in Nanking
at the time of the city's capture and claimed to have "witnessed" those "atrocities".
But, if you really, carefully read this book with no prejudice you should notice that
those so-called "eyewitnesses" are all HEARSAY from Chinese people.

18 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 03:50:27 ID:3EmTUXYj
使えそうな反論例(3):戦争についての有名文引用

Have a one more reading on this problem?,
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A2UIDKT0CYU62D/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-9670402-4380601?%5Fencoding=UTF8



19 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 03:50:32 ID:esLeXJGG
原文を少し解説するか翻訳した方が良くない?

20 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 03:52:10 ID:3EmTUXYj
>>19
ごめん。時間があったらする。今時間が無い。

21 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 04:14:00 ID:3EmTUXYj
>>8 これを翻訳

To me, many of the examples read like fever dreams, examples of what would happen if purely
evil people with purely evil intentions had full reign to try and outdo one another in atrocity.
私が読んだところ、ここで紹介されている例は熱病にうなされた夢のようだ。
例として出ている事例は純粋に悪意を持った悪魔のような人達が故意に他の人達に対して
残虐の限りを尽くし、悪魔の支配をしようとしたような描写をされている。

Real atrocity is more mundane and less elaborate. The beheadings in Iraq, or the machine
gunnings at Mai Lai, for example. Even the Nazi medical experiments and death camp horrors
were just getting on with business.
現実に起こりうる残虐とは行政支配による機械的なものでこのように手の込んだ細かいものではない。
(翻訳難しい)イラクの首切りやMai Lai による虐殺、またナチによる医学実験や強制収容所も
どちらかといえばもっとビジネスのように行われていた。

Rape, I understand. Soldiers gang-raping, sure. But what kind of a demento cuts a woman's
breast off? Did the entire Japanese army consist of Jeffrey Dahmer / John Wayne Gacy types?
I doubt it.
強姦?わかるよ。兵士のギャングレイプ、勿論。しかし一体どんな人が女性の乳房を切断するのだろう?
まさか全ての日本軍がJeffrey Dahmer / John Wayne Gacy のようなものだったのかな?疑うね。

22 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 04:14:44 ID:3EmTUXYj
Now, I can possibly see that press-ganged soldiers that had been in miserable, crazy-making
conditions for months, fighting against an enemy they had been propagandized to despise since
childhood might, MIGHT be goaded into some of these bizarre actions.
多分長い間戦場にいて惨めに虐げられて、敵と戦っているいれば、そして子供の頃から洗脳されていたら
もしかしたらそんな精神状態になり、(ここに上げられているような)悪行をするかもしれない。

But now that this woman has proven herself degenerate enough to leave her two year old without
a mother over selfish depression, I question her research. It seems to me more likely the demons
she wrote about were in her own head.
しかし、今ここでうつ病になった彼女が2歳の幼児を母無しとしてこの世に残して自殺したことを見ると、
彼女のしてきたリサーチとは彼女の頭の中にあったものを書いたのではないかと思えてしまう。

23 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 04:26:51 ID:bfg0QQq0
"Iris Chang killed herself, because she was ashamed of being, " 
November 27, 2004

She caused so much troubles with Japanese People, and she felt guilty for lying
about Nanking. She felt so guilty about it that she had to kill herself and she
wanted to vanish from this world. We accept her apology and we are ready to forgive her crime.

↑を書き込もうとしたら受け付けられなかった。1人1つまでしか書けないんだって。
だれか代わりに投稿してくれないかなあ。

24 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 04:36:07 ID:QHHcztrF
>>23
そういうことを書くのは賛成できませんね。彼女がなぜ死んだか誰にもわからないんだから。
憶測でチャンのシンパを煽るようなことはしないほうがいいですよ。

日本側の反論は、事実を淡々と述べるだけにすればよい。相手を怒らせるような
事は書かないほうがいいです。


25 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 05:30:02 ID:ET4Ege+L
>>24
同意。 反論のみにした方が良いと思う。
こちらから煽るような2ch的気軽な書き込みは止めた方が良いと思います。

26 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 06:52:08 ID:45SAO/QV
http://www.excite.co.jp/world/
のエキサイト翻訳で日→英にして、まじっすか
を翻訳してください。腰がぬけます。

27 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 07:05:08 ID:fAGZJOrA
アマゾン、アイリス・チャンの本
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-1757733-5577465
「アメリカにおける中国人」 TIME の評論
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501030811-472902,00.html
南京本だけでなく、この本も一緒に、史実が異なることを強調する。

別の戦略。
中国人のフリして、
"The Chinese in America: A Narrative History"
を褒め称えて、
Tibet and Uighur and Mongolia have been Chinese territories for 5000 years.
と書く。

あと、これの英語版とか欲しいな。
中国の対日政治工作 70年代から本格化 CIA文書公開
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20041022-00000011-san-int

28 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 07:23:16 ID:veaMsUdb
>>27
> 中国人のフリして

すぐ見破られるような嘘をつくと信用がなくなるよ。

別の方法でもっと効果的な方法を考えるべき。


29 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 07:39:51 ID:veaMsUdb
>>27 追加
▼反論方法
(1)南京の人口と中国が主張する被害者数の矛盾を解説。
(2)中国が発表する被害者数の戦後の変遷を解説
(3)当時の日本軍の配置、旅程、人員数等の資料と比較
(4)中国の政治・文化の伝統を説明する。
(5)日本の50年前を非難する中国が現在チベット弾圧を行っていることを追求。
(6)中国が反日政策を強化した理由。
(7)中国が反日政策を強化した時期とアイリスチャンの本の出版時期との一致。
(8)日本が行った戦後補償とODA の金額。
(9)なぜアメリカで中国の主張が歓迎されたのか(原爆と相殺したいのではないか)。
(10)アイリス・チャンの別の著書は歴史的に正確ではないと批判されているのになぜこの本だけは正しいといえるのか
(11) 勝てば官軍、負ければ賊軍、敗者全ての罪をかけられる。

▼資料 (書き込み番号)
(1) >>17
(2)
(3) >>16
(4)
(5)
(6)
(7)
(8)
(9)
(10) >>27
(11) >>18

30 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 07:59:07 ID:veaMsUdb
使えそうな反論例(4):中国のプロパガンダ説

The Rape of Nanking: How to fabricate hate., November 12, 2004
She died today. I don't know if it's coincidental or not that she committed
suicide after suffering some years of a deep depression.

To me, Iris Chang's book is probably on the same page as Hitler, if not worse.
Did she kill several million Jews? No. But the hate that she incites from
her books is astounding.

Her book describes the tragedy of how Japanese people treated the Chinese
during their World War II invasion. How cruel the Japanese people were,
etc. Were the Japanese evil? Yes. Are the Japanese evil? I don't know and
I really don't care. And I gurantee you that there are a lot of Japanese
youth that share my same opinion. Her book started some movement to
demand reparations from Japan for Chinese families that suffered.
Now is there anything wrong with that? I'll let you decide that.

But there are several things I would like to know:
Where is the book that talk about how the Chinese treated their own people?

31 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 07:59:59 ID:veaMsUdb
(続き)

Where is the the reparation for that? THERE IS NONE.

While there may still be Japanese soldiers alive from WWII, today -
WWII has very little to do with the current Japanese society. WWII
isn't going to happen again.

We shouldn't forget what happened - but at the same time, we don't
need to write books like this to incite hate towards the Japanese people.
Do you honestly think that people are going to read this book or the
freaking back cover of this book and not generalize? There will be
at least one person that will generalize their hatred towards
Japanese people from that.

Books like these are propaganda. Propaganda has nothing to do with
facts. You can quote facts all day and it won't change propaganda.
Propaganda is misusing facts for a cause.

32 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 08:02:21 ID:veaMsUdb
使えそうな反論例(5):中国の文化と残虐な伝統的刑罰

Cannibalism in Chinese history
http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/nanjing/canni.html

Chinese methods of execution
http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/nanjing/exctn.html

33 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 08:14:40 ID:veaMsUdb
使えそうな反論例(6):写真の捏造を分析説明

Faked pictures with misleading captions
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A3D5RZKPMQF6R5/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-9670402-4380601?%5Fencoding=UTF8

34 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 08:21:52 ID:veaMsUdb
使えそうな反論例(6):被害者人口の増加

China is raising up the number of the war dead., November 20, 2003

Why America's largest trading partners are not its close neighbors, Canada,
Mexico or Cuba? Because they hate Americans? I do not think so.
Did you know the first account of the war dead in the battle of Nanking by
Chiang Kai-Shek's Chinese National Party after WW2 was 40,000? At the
Tokyo Trial, the number was suddenly raised up to 200,000.

After Mao Tse-tung turned Chiang Kai-sek out to Taiwan, it was raised up
again to 300,000. Also the number of eyewitnesses has been increasing.
Unbelievable!

35 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 08:23:38 ID:veaMsUdb
▼反論方法
(1)南京の人口と中国が主張する被害者数の矛盾を解説。
(2)中国が発表する被害者数の戦後の変遷を解説
(3)当時の日本軍の配置、旅程、人員数等の資料と比較
(4)写真の捏造を分析・説明
(5)中国の政治・文化の伝統を説明する。
(6)日本の50年前を非難する中国が現在チベット弾圧を行っていることを追求。
(7)中国が反日政策を強化した理由。
(8)中国のプロパガンダ説。
(9)中国が反日政策を強化した時期とアイリスチャンの本の出版時期との一致。
(10)日本が行った戦後補償とODA の金額。
(11)なぜアメリカで中国の主張が歓迎されたのか(原爆と相殺したいのではないか)。
(12)アイリス・チャンの別の著書は歴史的に正確ではないと批判されているのになぜこの本だけは正しいといえるのか
(13)勝てば官軍、負ければ賊軍、敗者全ての罪をかけられる。
(14)偽証で人に罪を被せることはできない。
(15)50年前の出来事について現在の若い人に罪を問うべきか?

36 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 08:24:56 ID:veaMsUdb
▼参考資料・例文 (書き込み番号)
(1) >>17
(2) >>37
(3) >>16
(4) >>33
(5) >>32
(6)
(7)
(8) >>30-31
(9)
(10)
(11)
(12) >>27
(13) >>11
(14)
(15)

-----------------------
今はここまでで止めときます。

37 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 08:32:17 ID:bXaoQo/U
名スレの予感

38 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 09:13:36 ID:SOhDdDwH
メルマガ:「宮崎正弘の国際ニュース・早読み」
平成16年(2004)11月27日(土曜日)

(読者の声1) 先生のメールマガジンに先日から登場し、他の方々もご存知の
アイリス・チャンですが、小生が、以前、勉強しておりました、Kansas Stateに、
Fort Hays State Universityという小さな大学があります。 そこにあのアイリス・チャンの
友人の韓国人が、アジア史を、教えているそうです。 そのクラスを、取っていた
日本人の知り合いから聞いた話によると、これでもか、これでもかというくらい、
南京大虐殺や従軍慰安婦の映像を、初っ端から見せられたそうです。

そして授業内容は、日本人は極悪非道の殺戮民族ということを強調し、アメリカ人に
対する、刷り込みを、行っているそうです。宮崎先生、とうとうここまで彼等は
宣伝活動に力をいれています。中国の反日宣伝活動は、凄まじいものがあります。
一刻も速く、なんとかしなければまた情報戦で我が国はいいようにされてしまいます。

実際、この大学では中国の大学との提携があり、職員や教授に親中派が多く、
中国しか知らないのに、アジアを語る教授もいます。現地の日本人が歴史に全く無知、
あるいは、小生の様に英語を充分に使いこなすことができないので、いいように
彼等にやられているのが、現状です。 大変、厚かましい事であるとは、
充分承知いたしておりますが、どうか、解決策を教えてはいただけないでしょうか。

39 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 11:10:08 ID:DY4gOt4G
>>38
大学の規模や質に問題が有るんじゃないですか?
知的階層が行かない大学なら問題ないんじゃないかな。

40 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 15:30:13 ID:F8jZ35O/
書くときはさあ、ちゃんと日本人であることを明かして書き込もうよ。
余計な不信感を与える必要はないし、日本人であることを明かして恥ずかしいことは何もない。
どっちにしろ文章やボキャブラリーかなんかから、日本人であることは分かってしまうんだから。

41 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 16:27:56 ID:LPrcRVPx
こんなサイトを見つけたよ。
学校のエッセイを書くのが面倒な場合はここで購入するサイト。

「Rape of Nanking」 のエッセイの summary だけ読めます。
http://www.netessays.net/viewpaper/30114.html


42 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/28 17:04:47 ID:LPrcRVPx
アメリカ人が書いたと思われる一つ星 review
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A11ZRAKSAATTST/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-9670402-4380601?%5Fencoding=UTF8

I was so disappointed in this book that I did not even finish it.
(I have moved on to a far superior book, Rick Atkinson's
"An Army at Dawn." I highly recommend that book, by the way).
I found this book to be really lacking in detail and in background facts.
There was little more than a cursory effort to explain why this event
happened. A detailed analysis of the Japanese military itself and
its background would have been enlightening and interesting, for example.
Instead, this book seemed to be little more than a series of short horrific
stories about what the military did in Nanking. In addition, I question
the historical accuracy of a lot of what is in the book. Many, if not most,
of the stories were unattributed and came across as hearsay or as
probably apocryphal to me. Please don't get me wrong, I am not questioning
that it happened. I am questioning the accuracy of a lot of the stories and
the facts the book provided. The book also came across to me as overly
opinionated and excessively driven by the author's agenda.

I also did not like the structure of the book. It is written in several sections
that purport to present the entire story anew from different points of view.
But to me, it just made the book redundant and served to emphasize its
lack of detail within each section.

In short, if you are looking for a detailed, historically accurate account of
the Rape of Nanking that tries to do anything more than recount a bunch
of sad stories, this is not the book for you.

43 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/29 03:36:08 ID:DZbPJQU/
新しい書き込みがあった。
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1X1JKL0UA7M09/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-9670402-4380601?%5Fencoding=UTF8

----------------------------------------------
The coming conflict with China, November 28, 2004
The beijing authorities view anti-Japanese sentiment as something
to orchestrate primarily for its own international purposes to strengthen
war guilt among Japanese and opposition to Japanese rearmament
among the nations of the world.

Meanwhile, China's Communist Party shows no concern with any
moral accounting for the atrocities that it perpetrated against its
own people during the long years of mass imprisonment, labor camp,
the politically induced famine of the early 1960's, or, for that matter,
the massacre of pro-democracy protesters at Tiananmen.

-- Richard Bernstein and Ross H. Munro,

"The coming conflict with China"

----------------------------------------------
これは Richard Bernstein と Ross H. Munro が書いた
"The coming conflict with China"という本の中からの引用なのかな?

44 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/29 03:51:20 ID:DZbPJQU/
本日のUS Yahoo News の日本関連は二つだけ

Japan Troops May Stay in Iraq Through 2005
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041128/ap_on_re_as/japan_iraq_2

Another Mass Suicide Suspected in Japan
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041128/ap_on_re_as/japan_group_suicide_1

--------------------------------------------
日本関連ニュースの探し方

http://news.yahoo.com/
↑こちらのサイトの Search をYahoo News Only にして Keyword をJapanにする。

検索されて出てきたYahoo! News だけを見る。 
Yahoo! Asia News には Message Board は無い。

日本と中国両方関連で中国人の誹謗中傷が大量に出てくるので本日は平穏。

45 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/29 04:29:06 ID:h+5k6tNN
日本、中国関連では Japan Today の掲示板が盛り上がっています。

Japan's aid to China ends in near future: Machimura
http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=9&id=320175

46 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/29 14:54:20 ID:UBzzlH0C
新しい review 発見
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A2L9SPQPBWVM4N/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-9670402-4380601?%5Fencoding=UTF8
problematic but historiographically important, November 29, 2004
問題はあるが歴史史料としては重要
Reviewer: pslawson, specialist in Sino-Japanese relations (Cambridge, MA) - See all my reviews
pslawson, 中日関係専門家 (ケンブリッジ、MA)

Chang's book, from a historical perspective, is full of errors, which the revisionists
have used to their delight to claim the atrocity is fake. It is not, but her book is
a very mixed blessing and she did not do a good historical job. Her book is still
important and deserves mention for 2 historiographical reasons:
チャンの本は歴史的には間違いだらけであるため修正歴史家達は喜んで残虐なことが
あったことは嘘であると主張する。それは違っている。しかし彼女の本は非常な恩恵も
与えている(訳?)そして歴史学的にはあまり良い仕事をしているわけではない。
それでも彼女の本は二つの理由で歴史学的に重要であると言える。

1) Her book single handedly gave the incident a new life in the eyes of the overseas
Chinese community and the Western world at large. This has glavanized researchers
and produced more work on the issue.
彼女はこの本一冊で海外に住む中国人社会と西洋社会全体に大きなインパクトを与え
この事件に対してまた新しい視野を与えた。この本は研究家をこの事件について
考えさせ、多くの仕事をさせた。

2) Her book uses the Rabe diaries which has moved the research forward. Her
effective use of the Rabe account, which I seem to recall her finding (?) is very important.
彼女の本は「Rabe の日記」を取り上げていたため研究をもっと深めさせた。
彼女の「Rabe の日記」の効果的に取り上げていたため彼女の発見は重要である。

47 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/29 15:05:02 ID:UBzzlH0C
アウチ、こちらも本もあった。。。 
Confortwoman (従軍慰安婦)

The Comfort Women: Japan's Brutal Regime of Enforced Prostitution in the Second World War
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393316947/qid=1101708155/sr=2-3/ref=pd_ka_b_2_3/103-9670402-4380601

48 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/29 15:07:45 ID:UBzzlH0C

両方の本とも Hiromi さんという人が非常に頑張って反論してます。
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A2AN988COWP49T/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-9670402-4380601?%5Fencoding=UTF8

49 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/29 17:23:25 ID:NIX1/xCX
>>46
> 彼女はこの本一冊で海外に住む中国人社会と西洋社会全体に大きなインパクトを与え

中国共産党が海外の華僑を動員して強力なバックアップの宣伝活動をしたからじゃない?

50 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/30 05:55:08 ID:tr7cD/RZ
新しい反論です
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-9670402-4380601?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155

Fifteen years have passed since the end of the Cold War,, November 29, 2004
冷戦が終わってから15年が過ぎた
Reviewer: Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev - See all my reviews

and the world is now in the midst of turmoil and crisis. In order to keep the scarcely
maintained world peace, the role of the continued Japan-U.S. friendship and alliance
is unshakable. Throughout the Cold War era and up to the present day, there has been
some serious friction recorded, especially in the area of trade relative to the export of
textiles and steel, also in the area of discussions as to increasing Japan's defense
capabilities, and to restructuring of Japan's economic system. However, these items
of discussion have been, without exception, items of national interest. Both nations,
Japan and U.S., have tried to mutually resolve the problems and to reach the satisfactory
resolutions and these efforts and achievements are universally recognized.
そして世界は混迷と危機の最中にある。やっと保っている世界の平和を継続するためには
日本とアメリカの友好と同盟を継続してゆくことは重要である。冷戦中から現在に至るまでは
特に貿易関係における繊維・鉄鋼の輸出、日本の防衛力の増強、日本経済の再構築など
何度かの深刻な軋轢があったことは記録されている。しかしながらこれらの事柄は例外なく
(日米の)国益に関連したことであった。日米両国は問題を解決するべく双方から歩み寄り、
お互いに満足する結果を出すように努力してきたことは世界的い認識されている。

51 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/30 05:56:25 ID:tr7cD/RZ
However, for the past few years, some peculiar anti-Japanese campaigns have been
started in the U.S., and they have been escalated as the time passed. We are deeply
concerned that the new serious friction between Japan and the U.S. has expanded as
a result of these campaigns. The reason we express our concerns is that these
anti-Japanese activities have been developed in the U.S., but aren't related directly
to the national interests of either country. It is our assertion that there is someone
of the third world trying to set them up from behind.
しかしながら過去数年間特殊な反日キャンペーンがアメリカで始まってきている。そして
それは年月を追うごとに激化して来ている。私達はこのキャンペーンの結果日米の軋轢が
増大するのではないかと異常な懸念を持っている。私達がこれに対して懸念している理由は
これがアメリカで始まったことである、しかもこれは日米双方の国益のどちらにも関連して
いないことである。私達はこれが(日米に関係ない)第三国が背後から画策しているものと
確信している。

52 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/30 05:59:41 ID:tr7cD/RZ
Specifically, Chinese-American Iris Chang's The Rape of Nanking, which was published
in July 1997 in the U.S., and the wave of anti-Japanese campaigns agitated by her claims
are sitting at the center of this problem. The book's contents do not present verified facts,
and furthermore, they represent the quite opposite. As a result, those Japanese who are
shocked with such an injustice are not few. For this twisted representation of the historical
facts of the 'Nanking Massacre', even a monthly Japanese magazine, called Sekai which has
been a representative of the group which has admitted the 'Nanking Massacre', can't have
helped but express its disagreement and published an unusual explanatory statement.
特に中国系アメリカ人アイリス・チャン氏が1997年の7月にアメリカで出版した「レイプ・オブ・ナンキン」と
この本が反日キャンペーンの運動を煽動したことはこの問題の中心にある。この本は検証された
事実に基づくものでもなく、しかも全く正反対である。結果この本によって衝撃をを受けた日本人は多い。
この歪曲された歴史に基づく「南京の虐殺」について「南京事件」があったと認めている
グループを代表する日本の月刊誌「世界」でさえも(アイリス・チャンの記述には)同意できないとして
異例の説明のための声明を発表した。

--------------------------------------------------------
このスレッドを見ている人が誰かのスピーチか論文を引用したのかな?

中国が日米同盟を危うくしているという視点からの反論で非常にインテリな発言。
しかしゴルバチョフがなぜアメリカの立場で…

53 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/30 06:11:46 ID:tr7cD/RZ
その次の最新の review

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A33YPOHG7HI9JT/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-9670402-4380601?%5Fencoding=UTF8
中山文部大臣の大分での教科書問題に付いてのコメントのニュースのコピペのみ

学べるものはタイトルのみ
temporization (その場しのぎ・日和見主義) is despicable (卑劣・見下げはてた)

その他のリビューはすべてほとんど一行だけ。
DVDとシンガポール首相の著書、そしてTokyo Style という本。
多分若い東南アジア系の中国人で日本文化にも多少興味を持っている。

54 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/30 06:25:19 ID:tr7cD/RZ
本日の US Yahoo の日本関係のニュース

China, Japan, SKorea Vow Cooperation Over NKorea
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041129/wl_nm/asean_trilateral_dc_1
(漠然としていてわかりにくいためか掲示板の書き込み無し)

Japan's Supreme Court refuses compensation to South Korean war slaves
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041129/wl_afp/japan_skorea_war_court_041129075017
慰安婦訴訟敗訴 
(掲示板の書き込み無し、韓国人元気が無い)

Powerful quake injures 17 as Japan waits for the big one
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041129/wl_asia_afp/japan_quake_041129173710
北海道地震のニュース (現在掲示板の書き込みは38個)

http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=l&mid=&board=37138539&sid=37138539&tid=afpjapanquake&start=1
日本を侮辱する書き込みもいくつかあり。
amazon の book review はかなり敷居が高いけどこちらは気軽に英語の練習をするには良いと思う。

55 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/30 07:34:28 ID:wnVk0ot0
「宮崎正弘の国際ニュース・早読み」
平成16年(2004)11月30日(火曜日) 貳
 第978号 

老舗『エコノミスト』誌が「南京大虐殺」に懐疑的論評
 アイリス・チャンは「伝聞だけの記述であり論争的であ
っても賢明ではない」と。
 アイリス・チャンの「蓋棺禄(ガイカンロク)」を淡々
と書いたロンドン『エコノミスト』誌(11月27日号)
は、彼女の『レイプオブ南京』は「論争を招きやすかった
」として次のように総括した。

 「歴とした歴史家のみならず、多くは五十万部を売った
彼女の作品のあら探しをした。あれは政治的論争にすぎた
うえ、伝聞による誤謬が多く、そのうえ彼女は誤り箇所の
訂正を拒否した。記憶が確かでもない中国人の証言をもと
に目撃談を書いたのは賢明な方法ではなかった。まして当
時南京にいた外人の日記を多用したが、かれらも外人居留
地の安全地帯にいて”伝聞”を聞いただけであり、数の確
認をしたわけではなかった。だから日本におけるアイリス
の支持者でさえ(翻訳本が出版中止になっても)彼女に助
け船を出せなかった」

 同エコノミスト誌は「南京大虐殺はなかった」とする日
本のグループを「大幻想派」などと名付けながらも「無辜
の民を日本軍は一人も殺しておらず、殺害されたのは戦闘
行為における兵隊だけ」とする主張を、公平に掲載してい
る。

 全体的にはアイリス・チャンを美化した論調だが、これ
ほど日本側の反対意見を併記した欧州の媒体は珍しい。
http://www.melma.com/mag/06/m00045206/a00000060.html

56 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/30 13:39:03 ID:VDJzNnFk
>>54
> Japan's Supreme Court refuses compensation to South Korean war slaves
> http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041129/wl_afp/japan_skorea_war_court_041129075017
> 慰安婦訴訟敗訴 

書き込み発見。
http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=m&board=37138459&tid=afpjapanskoreawarcourt&sid=37138459&mid=2
...at the time, Japanese were no better than the Nazis :
- 20 millions Chinese died; the same amount in Russia, caused by the war with Germany
日本人に中国人が2000万人殺された
- unknown, untold horrors : for instance 1 to 3 millions northern Indochinese died
of hunger, due to lack of rice (all was for the Japanese troops)
- even now, most Japanese either don't know or don't want to know their past
crimes. And many are whitewashing their past
(like Shintaro ISHIHARA, the mayor of Tokyo; or those cited)

...but the same goes for actual crimes and criminels : for instance, the Bushists
perpetrating horrors in Iraq, in an illegal and horrendous neo-colonialist
war : 100 000 innocent iraqi civilians slained so far by the US army !!!






57 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/30 18:16:57 ID:C7yr1NZE
ヤフーって権威あんの?
日本のヤフー掲示板は完全に2chに負けたけどな。

58 :日出づる処の名無し:04/11/30 18:38:59 ID:qZcCL8nb
>>57
アメリカはヤフーより大きい総合掲示板はないと思う

59 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/01 04:49:24 ID:OZnDjt7j
本日のUSヤフーの日本関連ニュース

▼Wen Sidesteps Koizumi's Invitation to Visit Japan (掲示板書き込み1件のみ)
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041130/wl_nm/china_japan_dc_1

▼Oscar-winning animator's new film wows Japan, readies to take on world
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041130/lf_afp/afplifestyle_japan_film_041130162233
「ハウルの動く城」関連ニュース 10月から継続している掲示板があり結構おもしろい

▼Japan, South Korea Sign on for Trade Talks  (掲示板書き込み無し)
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041130/ap_on_bi_ge/asean_1

▼Japan, India Woo SE Asia to Counter China Muscle (掲示板書き込み5件のみ)
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041130/wl_nm/asean_dc_11

▼Japan's Jobless Rate Rises to 4.7 Pct.  (掲示板書き込み無し)
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041130/ap_on_bi_ge/japan_unemployment_4

▼Lawmakers Grill Citigroup Japan Chief
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041130/bs_nm/financial_japan_citigroup_dc_1
9月の関連ニュースから継続している掲示板の書きこみが9件
(中国人の日本に対する誹謗中傷の書きこみがあり)

▼Japan's Nikkei Average Closes Lower
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041130/bs_nm/markets_japan_stocks_dc_6
2月の関連ニュースから継続している掲示板の書きこみが62件

60 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/01 18:22:57 ID:bVMh+Bh2
今後、香港で反日教育が強化されていくので、
英語での反日プロパガンダが凄くなると予想できる。

61 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/01 23:08:14 ID:CnbZa68N
本日のUSヤフーの日本関連ニュース

Japan pic fund starting strong
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/variety/20041130/va_ne_al/japan_pic_fund_starting_strong_1
映画債の投資家募集が上手く行っているというニュース(松竹映画 「しのび(忍)」?)

Japan's Fuji Photo to build world-class research center: report
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041201/tc_afp/japan_fujiphoto_company_041201002524
フジフィルムが世界規模の研究所を神奈川に作る計画

Japan considering waiving visas to SKorean tourists from next year
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041201/wl_asia_afp/japan_skorea_visa_041201003414
韓国人へのビザ免除のニュース

Crime leads Japan to toughen penal code for first time in century
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041201/wl_asia_afp/japan_crime_justice_041201085112
日本は犯罪の増加で刑罰を強化

どの掲示板も書きこみ無し
-----------------------------------------
amazon の review の書きこみが新規三件
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-9670402-4380601?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
文章のスタイルが同じなので多分同じ人が書き込んだものだと思う。




62 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/01 23:23:39 ID:enq4AFcN
中国人は馬鹿の一つ覚えじゃないが、戦前の反日工作と同じようなことを
またアメリカでやっているのか。

63 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/02 02:09:55 ID:FJt1mpFs
>>62
反日工作? かもね。
日本関係の掲示板には必ずと言って良いほど中国人らしき人達の書き込みがある。
書いている内容はどれも同じ。↓こんな感じ
Japanese still worship war criminals
http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=m&board=37138456&tid=nmfinancialjapancitigroupdc&sid=37138456&mid=1

GOD punished the Japs
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041129/wl_asia_afp/japan_quake_041129173710

年中こんな書きこみを見ているとアメリカ人も洗脳されちゃうよ。

実際日本関係の掲示板は中国人の war criminal, brutal,
それと映画とアニメで洗脳されたような japanese girls are hot, godzillaばっかりだ。
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041130/lf_afp/afplifestyle_japan_film_041130162233

64 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/02 13:35:46 ID:xI/L7ouQ
アメリカのヤフー掲示板は日本のより
さらに盛り上がってない。書き込みあるのは
ニュースとか時事ネタくらいのもの。

65 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/02 14:11:18 ID:dja/JctV
ニュースの種類による。
More in America Putting Off Marriage
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=716&e=6&u=/ap/20041202/ap_on_re_us/never_married

類似ニュースが継続して同じ掲示板にリンクしているかにも夜

66 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/03 11:34:13 ID:9g9qH/0R
amazon の新規 review 発見
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1111SRNHKYHF4/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-9670402-4380601?%5Fencoding=UTF8
The Truth Exposed!, December 2, 2004

Its amazing how the Japanese government and rightist citizens continue to whitewash
their history and deny the war crimes perpetuated against ethnic Chinese and Koreans.
日本の政府と右翼市民がごまかしの歴史で取り繕い、中国と韓国国民に対して犯した
戦争犯罪についていつまでも否定を続けるのは驚くべきことだ。

They systematically fabricate history, an example so perfectly seen in
"Nanking Problem"'s narrative below. But a fabrication remains one nonetheless
in spite of the ingenuity of its art. What stark difference in comparison with the Germans.
I just hope that this honest piece of work by the late Ms Chang will be able to withstand
all the fabrications and onslaughts of Imperial Japan.
彼らは下に述べられているように南京問題を完璧にみえるように組織的に歴史の捏造を行う。
しかし完璧にみえるようにあっても捏造は間違いなく行われている。ドイツと比べてなんと違うことか。
私は故アイリス・チャンの誠実な仕事が日本帝国の全ての捏造と傲慢さを阻止しすることを希望する。

But in reality, the truth does not always prevail, as seen by the proliferation of people like
"Nanking Problem", who continue to trumpet their own version of "history".
しかしながら現実の世界ではここで自分達の視点の「南京問題」を述べている人達が
いるように必ずしも真実が暴かれるということにはならない。

May God forgive them for their heinous beliefs!
神よ彼らの憎むべき信仰を許したまえ。


67 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/03 14:05:59 ID:vVXt0gP3
愛子様 3歳になり法律改正の必要性
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041201/ap_on_re_as/people_princess_aiko_1
女性と男性の能力差についての議論をしているところにまた中国人乱入

http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=m&board=37138459&tid=appeopleprincessaiko&sid=37138459&mid=19
Don't let Japan have veto power
by: fproiwgehrtful 12/02/04 11:18 am Msg: 19 of 19

Japanese government (not japanese people) have always stirred the same sh*t with
US in the Pacific. Furthermore, the jap. government don't pay a damn to what they
did in the WW2, and they are changing how they teach history to children.
日本政府はアメリカと一緒にいつも太平洋岸の問題を起こす。その上日本政府は
第二次世界大戦でしたことについて全く補償をしていない。
そして子供に教える歴史を変えようとしている。

And then they stop financial aid to China, and at the same time, ask China to support t
hem a permanent seat in UN Security Counsil? Yeah right. Don't let them fool you,
China, they are gonna do you no good if they have veto.
そして彼らは中国に対する援助を止めようとしているにも関わらず国連常任理事国の席確保で
中国に頼ろうとしている。そうだよ。
彼らに騙されるな、中国よ。もし日本が拒否権を得ることができたら何も良いことはない。


68 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/05 02:36:01 ID:KXrisf4N
英語苦手だけど応援しています。
頑張ってください
良スレage

69 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/05 06:12:19 ID:3acqmsD2
こいつってアメリカでも捏造認定されちゃってるんでしょ?
今時、こいつの言う事丸ごと信じるなんて中共シンパぐらいしかいないでしょ。

70 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/05 08:24:49 ID:nX8rL07P
1940年、ソ連のスモレンスクのカチンの森でポーランド将校が約1万人虐殺された
事件は、戦後のニュルンベルグ裁判でナチスの凶行だとされた。
ソ連の偽証によって。
そして1990年、ソ連が崩壊して漸くその嘘が暴かれた。
虐殺を行ったのはナチスではなくソ連だった。

とまぁこんな具合に、南京事件とやらの真相もやがて明らかになるだろう。
中国共産党による捏造だった事がね。

71 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/05 12:53:11 ID:t637SY0q
>>68 ありがと。
本日の US Yahoo 日本関連ニュース
▼Godzilla rises for final wars in Japan
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041205/wl_asia_afp/afplifestyle_japan_film_041205022602
「ゴジラ FINAL WARS」公開 
―最後の方に11月29日にハリウッドの Walk of Fame に記念星型プレートが埋め込まれたと書いてます。
(掲示板の書きこみは以前から続いているものが106個)

▼Robots to take care of music at World Expo 2005 in Japan (掲示板書きこみ無し)
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041203/tc_afp/japan_expo2005_toyota_041203170406
2005年の日本万博ではロボットが音楽を取り仕切りる
―ホンダ、ソニーに遅れをとたトヨタ自動車が愛知万博で音楽を演奏するロボットで歓迎。

▼Japan Examines Equality for Royal Family (掲示板書きこみ1個)
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041203/ap_on_re_as/japan_royal_reform_2
日本は皇族の平等性について再検討を始めた
―最後の一行、愛子様は現在自分で服を着ることと、歯を磨くことにフォーカスしている...
(確か日本で発表されたのは自分で服をきることと歯を磨くことができるようになったハズだけど)

▼Army Deserter Jenkins to Settle in Japan
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041204/ap_on_re_as/japan_us_deserter_4
ジェンキンス氏佐渡に定住予定
―佐渡の紹介で順徳天皇が1221年に佐渡に島流しになったとコメント。

▼Rivals share spoils at World Cup speed-skating 
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041204/wl_canada_afp/sskate_wcup_jpn_041204171821
ワールドカップのスピードスケートについて

72 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/05 12:56:58 ID:zpgjl9KA
極東板は人が少ないからロビー活動しようにも人が集まらなくて効果が無い希ガス。東亜辺りにでも立てほうがいいのかな

でも、応援してる>>1の中の人。

73 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/05 13:00:26 ID:t637SY0q
>>71
ジェンキンス氏関係の掲示板の書きこみはわずか2時間ほどで103個もあり
↓こんな書き込みも

I want to defect to North Korea... 
by: eshommie 12/03/04 08:17 pm Msg: 68 of 103

Camping during youth, live in a college dorm / fraternity environment, play jokes on the RA.
Marry a nice japanese cutie, have a couple of kids, settle in the country.
Damn...lucky batsard.
eshommie
--------------------------------------------------
Lucky bastard
by: warmutant (21/M/Colorado...oh god kill me) 12/03/04 08:15 pm Msg: 64 of 103
2 recommendations

Seriously, he does something wrong and ends up living in Japan? Yeesh. That's kind lame.

74 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/05 13:05:46 ID:t637SY0q
>>72
でもこのスレを見た人が書いたのか amazon の review には
中国人の5星の書きこみがあると即座に一つ星の反論の書き込みをする人が出てきたよ。
(だれかわからないけどありがとう)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/102-6941759-8444917?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155

5星と同じぐらいの数の中国人が興醒めするような理論的反論があれば
それを見たアメリカ人もこの本のことを醒めた目で見るようになると思う。

75 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/05 13:17:33 ID:z3LF5FsG
>>74
Produced by China っていうレビューがあるのには
感動した。みんながんがれ!

76 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/05 13:31:40 ID:t637SY0q
こちらの従軍慰安婦関係の本の review を書いてくれる人も募集

▼Silence Broken : Korean Comfort Women
by D. Kim-Gibson, Dai Sil Kim-Gibson
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0931209889/ref=pd_sim_b_2/102-6941759-8444917?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
Dai Sil Kim-Gibson だから白人男性と結婚した韓国系女性が書いたものと思える

▼The Comfort Women: Japan's Brutal Regime of Enforced Prostitution in the Second World War
by George L. Hicks
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393316947/qid=1102220539/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/102-6941759-8444917?v=glance&s=books
従軍慰安婦についてなぜか著者の名前は白人男性 George L. Hicks

Hiromi shut the hell up, June 3, 2004 Reviewer: A reader
You should shut the hell up hiromi. Your negative comments have plagued this entire
system when the truth has comes out. Don't deny there was no rape.
There is rape in every war even today, some being more cruel like the damn
Japanese. If the damn Jap army was as you claim so "nice", the Chinese people
would have supported them instead of Chiang or Mao. So shut up Hiromi,
and accept the truth. How would you feel if you, your family and loved ones
got raped and mutilated? SO SHUT UP.


77 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/06 09:02:31 ID:811kem+z
本日の US Yahoo 日本関連ニュース
▼Japan's defence chief visits troops in Iraq
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041205/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_japan_visit_041205201855
日本の防衛庁長官イラクの自衛隊を視察 

▼Godzilla fans refuse retirement for Japan's monster hero
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041205/ts_afp/afplifestyle_japan_film_041205181835
ゴジラファン、日本の怪獣王の引退を拒否
―掲示板の書きこみ活発、アメリカでもゴジラの人気は高いようだ

▼Violent winds wreak havoc in Japan, bring record temperatures to Tokyo
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041205/sc_afp/japan_weather_wind_041205143601
暴風により大災害がもたらされる。東京では記録的な高温を記録

▼Japan Cautious Over N. Korea Sanctions
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041205/ap_on_re_as/japan_nkorea_1
日本、北朝鮮への経済制裁に慎重な姿勢
―9月の関連ニュースから続いている掲示板の書きこみ活発

78 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/07 17:18:11 ID:sABWuzRj
>>46 の次に続く >>50 は効果的。

多分 >>46 はハーバード大学あたりで勉強する中国人。
反論を冷静に読むと否定するしかないが何かを評価したい。
だから↓こう書いた。
> 彼女はこの本一冊で海外に住む中国人社会と西洋社会全体に大きなインパクトを与え
> この事件に対してまた新しい視野を与えた。この本は研究家をこの事件について
> 考えさせ、多くの仕事をさせた。

それに対して >>50 は↓このように書く。
> 過去数年間特殊な反日キャンペーンがアメリカで始まってきている
> しかもこれは日米双方の国益のどちらにも関連して
> いないことである。私達はこれが(日米に関係ない)第三国が背後から画策しているものと
> 確信している。

アイリスチャンの本を評価しようとする人を興醒めさせる反論でイイ



79 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/07 20:28:04 ID:N4CdovjL
つうか、

日本の歴史に一度として出てきたことのない殺害方法で虐殺が行われ
(マムコに異物挿入、腹裂いて内臓引きずり出しetc)
日本の歴史に一度として出てきたことのない拷問器具が抗日記念館で展示されてるのは
どういうことなのか誰か判るように説明してくれ。

このミッシングリンクを説明できたら
南京での虐殺は10万人までなら認めてやらないこともないぞ。

80 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/08 18:02:05 ID:gYdiWb19
China's Textbooks Twist and Omit History
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/06/international/asia/06textbook.html

HANGHAI, Dec. 5 - The history teacher maintained a blistering pace, clicking from
one frame quickly to the next, during a lecture on China's relations with the world
from 1929 to 1939 in one of this country's most selective high schools.

There was Hitler, shown on parade, his hand lifted in the Nazi salute. The teacher
mimicked the gesture, to brief laughter, announcing the year the dictator came to
power, with no pause for a discussion of fascism. Pushing ahead quickly, he said
the United States was exploiting Canadian and Latin American resources, while
Britain fed off India. Wherever it could, France, which was dismissed in barely a
sentence, mostly followed Britain's example.

Getting to the meat of the lesson, the teacher said Japan decided to pursue its
own longtime desire for a continental empire, and attacked China. The presentation
lingered on a famous 1937 picture of a Chinese baby sitting in the middle of a
Shanghai road amid the Japanese aerial bombing of China. Then, moments later,
the teacher announced plainly, "America's attitude toward the Japanese invasion
of China stopped at empty moral criticism."

81 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/08 18:02:53 ID:gYdiWb19
This country has made a national pastime of wagging its finger at its neighbor,
Japan, which it regularly scolds for not teaching the "correct history" about
Japan's invasion of China in the 1930's, straining relations between Asia's
biggest powers.

However, a visit to a Chinese high school classroom and an examination of
several of the most widely used history textbooks here reveal a mishmash of
historical details that many Chinese educational experts themselves say are
highly selective and often provide a deeply distorted view of the recent past.

Most Chinese students finish high school convinced that their country has
fought wars only in self-defense, never aggressively or in conquest, despite
the People's Liberation Army's invasion of Tibet in 1950 and the ill-fated war
with Vietnam in 1979, to take two examples.

Similarly, many believe that Japan was defeated largely as a result of Chinese
resistance, not by the United States.

82 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/08 18:04:26 ID:gYdiWb19
"The fundamental reason for the victory is that the Chinese Communist Party
became the core power that united the nation," says one widely used textbook,
referring to World War II.

No one learns that perhaps 30 million people died from famine because of
catastrophic decisions made in the 1950's, during the Great Leap Forward,
by the founder of Communist China, Mao Zedong.

Similar elisions occur in everything from the start of the Korean War, with
an invasion of South Korea by China's ally, North Korea, to the history of
Taiwan, which Beijing claims as an irrevocable part of China.

"The Anti-Japanese War finally succeeded, and Taiwan came back to the
motherland," another leading textbook states, referring to Japan's defeat in
World War II and the loss of its colonial hold on Taiwan.

"The closer history gets to the present, the more political it becomes," said
Chen Minghua, a 12th grade history teacher at the No. 2 Secondary School in
Shanghai. "So for things after the founding of the People's Republic, we only
require students to know the basic facts, like what happened in what year,
and we don't study why."

83 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/08 18:05:30 ID:gYdiWb19
Although some defend the curriculum, many academics say the way history is
taught in China forces even the best teachers to bob and weave around anything
deemed delicate by the country's leaders and leaves students confused about
their own country's place in the world.

Asked what they made of the discussion of the 1930's, one student at the
Shanghai high school eagerly volunteered that China had prevented Japan
from taking over much of the world. Another said war was inevitable. And a
third, who approached the teacher after class to pursue the discussion,
said the war had not been a bad thing, since it had prevented Japan from
becoming a world power.

Defenders of China's curriculum say that whatever its shortcomings, history
education has vastly improved in recent years. There is more choice among
textbooks, even if all textbooks are carefully screened by the government,
and once taboo subjects, like the Chinese Nationalists' contribution during
the war against Japan and even the Cultural Revolution are being mentioned,
if only cursorily, in more and more textbooks.

84 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/08 18:06:43 ID:gYdiWb19
Asked why Chinese textbooks do not mention such matters as Tibet's claim to
independence at the time Communist troops invaded, Ren Penjie, editor of a
history education magazine in Xian, said: "These are still matters of controversy.
What we present to children are less controversial facts, which are easier to explain."

Others said such events were too recent to be seen with objectivity, or that the
facts were still coming in, both of which are common explanations offered by
Japanese historians who defend the lack of candor about Japanese atrocities
in World War II.

For his part, Mr. Ren, who took part in the 1989 protests in Tiananmen Square,
which ended in a military crackdown that left hundreds of civilians dead, counted
that event as being far too recent to touch upon.

One 1998 textbook that alludes to the demonstrations calls them a "storm"
created by the failure of leaders to stop the spread of "bourgeois liberalism,"
adding vaguely that "the Central Committee took action in time and restored
calm." The most recent edition of the same textbook is vaguer still, speaking
only of thoughts fanned by a small number of people whose aim was to
overthrow the Communist Party, with no mention of the lethal aftermath.

85 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/08 18:07:30 ID:gYdiWb19
Some Chinese history specialists were less inclined to make excuses
for the evasions, however.

"Quite frankly, in China there are some areas, very sensitive subjects,
where it is impossible to tell people the truth," said Ge Jianxiong, director
of the Institute of Chinese Historical Geography at Fudan University in
Shanghai and a veteran of official history textbook advisory committees.
"Going very deeply into the history of Mao Zedong, Deng Xiaoping and
some features of the Liberation" - as the Communist victory is called -
"is forbidden. In China, history is still used as a political tool, and at the
high school level, we still must follow the doctrine."

Taking the long view, though, Mr. Ge, 59, who taught high school during
the 1966-76 Cultural Revolution, when teachers were beaten and education
became hyper-politicized, said things were gradually getting better.

Su Zheliang, a historian at Shanghai Normal University, who is himself the
author of a new textbook, agreed.

"Sometimes I want to write the truth, but I must take a practical approach,"
he said. "I want my students to learn, and I've put out the best book that
I can. In 10 years, perhaps, China will be a much more open country."

86 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/08 22:28:33 ID:rM9Vracv
★「中国教科書 歴史を歪曲」米紙報道 日本叩きが国民的娯楽

・ニューヨーク・タイムズ六日付は上海発で中国の教科書について「歴史を
 ゆがめ、政治の必要に応じて、修正されている」とする報道を掲載した。
 同報道は中国では歴史自体が政治の材料にされているとして、とくに日本に
 関しては「日本をたたくことが(中国の)国民的娯楽」と伝えた。

 同報道は「中国の教科書は歴史を曲げ、省く」という見出しの記事で、
 ニューヨーク・タイムズ記者が上海で中国人の教育関係者多数から取材
 した結果だとしている。

 同報道は「中国では日本をたたくことが国民的な娯楽で、日本に対し正しい
 歴史を教えないと叱(しか)るが、中国の歴史教科書こそ近年の歴史を
 きわめて選別的に教え、ゆがんだ見解を提供している」と述べ、ゆがみの
 実例として(1)中国軍はチベットやベトナムに侵攻したのに自衛以外の
 戦争はしたことがない、と教えている(2)第二次大戦で日本は米国ではなく
 中国共産党軍により敗北させられた、と教えている−ことなどをあげている。

 同報道はまた上海の中国人教育関係者らの談話として「中国では歴史は
 政治の道具として使われる」「天安門事件も騒乱分子が国家基盤を危うくした
 犯罪行為だとされる」「近年の歴史になるほど、共産党への配慮からあいまいに
 しか教えられなくなる」という言葉を紹介している。(一部略)

 http://www.sankei.co.jp/databox/n_korea/nkorea_52_1.htm

87 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/09 10:54:31 ID:FZAa1CYu
I'm shocked, December 8, 2004
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-7333056-3101418?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
Reviewer: Jun Chen "Kopus" (Worcester, MA United States) -
to see ratings either at 5 stars or at 1 star. To those rate with 1 star.
5つ星か1つ星しかないのにびっくりした。そして一つ星と評価した人に。

To those criticize the bias of the author. I would say this book isn't just a list of facts.
I have never read a book with absolute objectivity. A good history book is to combine
authentic materials with feelings (and that emotion is what make us as human being!)
著者の考え方の傾向について批判する人に言いたい。この本は事実を述べているだけではない。
私は本を読む時絶対的な客観性を持って読むことはできないと思っている。良い歴史の本とは
根拠のある事実と感情を併せ持ったものであると思う(そしてその感情こそ人間性である)

To one of the reviewer who he said that the rape count is not realistic because there
are not that many babies born, I personally felt deeply hurt and shivered with disbelief.
How, I would ask, a woman could ever have a baby if she's killed right after she was raped?!!!
ここで感想を述べている人は強姦は真実とは思えないなぜならその後にたくさんの赤ちゃんが
産まれるはずだと言っているが、この意見に私は非常に傷ついた。どうして強姦された後に
すぐ殺された女性が子供を持つことができるのだろうか。

88 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/09 10:54:54 ID:FZAa1CYu
It's a book about something we shouldn't forget, that people can produce such
unbelievable tragedy (it's so unbelievable that I understand quite a few people just don't
believe it) given certain context and we all as human being have the responsibility
to prevent similar things to happen again!!!!!
この本は人類がこのような悲劇を引き起こすことを記録している私達が忘れてはいけない本だ。
(あまりにも信じられないようなことなのでいくらかの人達は全く信じることすらできないのだと思う)
私達人類はこのようなことが二度と起こらないようにくい止める責任があると思う。

God bless Chang in heaven.
天国のチャンに神の祝福があれ。

89 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/09 12:36:54 ID:/eD2+4LR
>>87
いかにも支那畜らしい理論だな、そのレビュー。

90 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/09 13:01:22 ID:zMfWlKyr
>>88
クリスチャンは自殺した人が天国にいるとは考えないけどな。

91 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/09 16:13:32 ID:FLQpkA6C
共産中国の歴史教科書じゃチベットは中国のものだとか
第二次大戦で日本を任したのは共産中国だとか書いてある、
チベット虐殺を教えてない…

を批判したニューヨークタイムズの記事内容を
書いておくべきかも知れん。誇張・捏造が多いって。


92 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/10 11:11:18 ID:4+qi23o/
本日の US Yahoo 日本関連ニュース
▼Report: Japan Extends Iraq Troop Mission
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041209/ap_on_re_as/japan_iraq_1
自衛隊のイラク派遣1年間延長
―11月28日から続いている掲示板に書きこみが21個

▼Japan Studio Pays Big for Godzilla Film
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041209/ap_en_mo/godzilla_budget_3
日本の映画会社、ゴジラ映画の制作費に高額の費用をかける。
―掲示板の↓この書きこみに笑った。
all that money
by: skirtchaser64 (40/M/San Jose) 12/09/04 10:49 am Msg: 1 of 2

With all that technology and money thats in Japan...and with movie technology the way
it is...it amazes me that "man in rubber suit" movies are still being made.
日本のあの技術力と金がありながらいまだにゴム人形のゴジラ映画を製作していることに驚く。

▼Furious Japan wants action against NKorea for lying about kidnapping
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041209/wl_afp/japannkoreakidnap_041209080454
激怒した日本、北朝鮮の拉致の嘘に制裁を求める
―掲示板にひどい日本の誹謗中傷の書きこみがある。

-----------------------------------------
南京事件と関係のない事柄はこのスレの余興の娯楽です。
plus
USで流れる日本関連ニュースの全体像を把握するため。

93 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/10 11:17:06 ID:4+qi23o/
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A2X7WSQ1M8DAD8/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-7333056-3101418?%5Fencoding=UTF8
EXAMINATION THE PROOFS OF THE PROSECUTION

I try to compare the so-called 'Nanking Massacre' with a murder case (including
the looting and rape associated to it). Under the assumption that the Prosecution
is responsible for the burden of proof, I am going to examine the evidences from
various aspects through procedures of criminal codes, to determine whether the
Prosecution has been able to prove the 'Nanking Massacre' as a crime.

I think that History of the War against Japan can be comparable to the indictment.
This book claims that the Japanese Army killed more than 300,000 Chinese captives
and civilians from December 1937 through February 1938 with a variety of arguments.
Although I can argue against each point, here in this chapter, I will categorize them
into the following 'four points of advocacy' and 'ten points of argument.'

94 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/10 11:17:33 ID:4+qi23o/
The whole view of the indictment
- The number of casualties, 300,000
- - After the Japanese occupation, did the population of Nanking decrease by more than 300,000?
- - Did the 'Chinese postwar investigation' have probative value and admissibility?
- - - Chinese testimonies of eleven cases to verify the murder of 190,000 people.
- - - Burial records of 150,000 corpses by the Advance Benevolence Society and the Red Swastika Society.
- - Did westerners witness the massacre?
- - Were Japanese high officials aware of the massacre?
- Systematic massacre
- - Did the Japanese Army plan a systematic murder?
- - Was the mopping-up operation a systematic murder?
- - Did the Japanese Army have a policy of killing POWs?
- Systematic large scale looting and rape
- - Did the Japanese Army practice systematic looting?
- - Did the Japanese Army commit systematic rape?
- Cruel Atrocities
- - Did Japanese officers perform the 'Murder Race'?

95 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/10 11:24:22 ID:4+qi23o/
最近は中国人の5星のreview の後には必ず反論を載せる人がいる。
このスレをみた2chネラーの書きこみかも。

この調子で一つの5星に対して2つの反論があれば現在597ある
書きこみの半数以上が1星の反論になるのはそう遠いことでは無い。
------------------------------------------------------
ところで最初のページにある6個の代表review はどういう基準で選ばれているのだろう。

一番下の二つは一番最近の書きこみ二つ。
そして多分他の二つは recommendation が多い順に二つではないかと思うが...

96 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/12 11:38:15 ID:JIW+DQcJ
<amazon book> Rape of Nanking
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140277447/qid=1101489504/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-3589861-2704113

最近はamazon の review に反論を書いてくれる人が増えたよ。
このスレの影響かな?


97 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/12 12:30:50 ID:D/q9ICP1
つうか、いわゆる「南京大虐殺」は毛沢東のプロパガンダです。

日本の降伏により、武装解除していた日本軍人は
国民党の命令で、支那各地に設置された「集中営」という捕虜収容所に集められていた。
「集中営」に入所することで日本への引き揚げを待っていたのだ。
蒋介石は捕虜の待遇を良くし、食料の配給もきちんとこなしていたそうだが
ソレを邪魔したのが毛沢東。

終戦後も共産党軍は、
鉄道破壊、鉄橋爆破、警備隊への襲撃、農家からの略奪を繰り返し
挙句「集中営」にまで攻撃を加えたり、略奪行為を行ったりしていた。
そのため蒋介石は「集中営」の日本軍人に対して武装を返却し、
「集中営」の防備、近隣の警護を行わせた。

「悪鬼の如く支那人を無慈悲に虐殺しまくる」日本軍人に
武器を持たせて警護に当たらせたというのはどういうことか。

なんのことはない。
支那戦線の日本軍は規律を重んじ虐殺など行っていなかったという歴史的事実があるだけ。

98 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/13 13:53:30 ID:PyQm0XwK
>>86のような歴史捏造から戦争倫理まで中国人は第二次大戦以来なにひとつ変わっていないようですね。
いまチベットで中国がしていることを見聞きする度に
南京大虐殺で日本軍がしたとされていることとの類似に驚かされる。

99 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/14 00:58:00 ID:0A8YvLJa
総合的中国研究スレッド2
http://tmp4.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/asia/1101435132/

中国人の対日工作として始まったスレッドですが、
興味深い推移を見せています。

100 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/14 14:16:52 ID:ity15TyX
100

101 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/16 04:05:27 ID:u7rcsIBj
Excellent and a solemn duty for everyone to recognize., December 15, 2004
Reviewer: "riley555" (Canada) - See all my reviews
秀作、全ての人が認識するべき価値のある (5星)

The rape of Nanking in 1937 is the very definition of barbarity. Just as it is a crime
against humanity to perpetrate such an inhumane act it is also a crime against
humanity for the rest of the world not to recognize it.
1937年に起きた南京大虐殺は残虐性というものを教えてくれる。人間性に対する犯罪であり、
このようなことをすることにようって人間性を冒涜することだけでなく、これは世界中の
人間全体に対しての人間性を冒涜することになることを認識するべきである。

However it is also important to remember that the Japanese people in general are
not bad. They were brain washed and trained to be totally devoid of pity for enemy or for self.
しかしながら一般の日本人が悪いわけではないことも認識しなければならない。
これは洗脳されてそのことがわからないことが悪いことなのである。

102 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/16 04:06:30 ID:u7rcsIBj
As imperialism and fascism, any nation and any human being can become brain washed
and be the perpetrator of such crimes. It is NOT just a certain race or people. In turn
it is our duty as human beings to learn from this atrocity so that no nation or people
will ever be subjected to commit such a brutal crime or become victims of this behaviour.
帝国主義とファシズムで洗脳されればどの国の国民もこのようなことを行ってしまうのである。
これは特定の人種や人々にかぎられたことではない。したがってこの残虐行為がどのようなもので
あるかを学ぶことは人類が今後このような行為を行うことを防ぎ、犠牲者になることを防ぐことにもなる。

This book is not based loosely. There are literally thousands of eye witness accounts,
diaries and pictures to support that the massacre took place. However some authors
and historians differ on the actual number of people who were murdered, some say
200,000 while others say up to 600,000 were killed.
この本は不正確な事実に基づいているのではない。実際に何千人もの目撃者がおり、
このことを証明する日記や写真もたくさん残されている。しかしながら歴史家や本の著者に
よって何人が殺されたかの数は違っている。犠牲者の数が20万人という人もいるし、
60万人が殺されたという人もいる。
-----------------------------------------------------

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A3NV64ZIUWTXTD/ref=cm_cr_auth/102-7116798-1271364?%5Fencoding=UTF8
犠牲者の数が60万人に増えています。

103 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/16 10:43:06 ID:GFSBas1h
>>101-102
中国人がしてきた文化大革命の時の洗脳や
チベット侵略して虐殺をしていることを知らないらしい。

104 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/16 14:00:47 ID:wGD2bKWv
North Korea says Japanese sanctions would be 'declaration of war' - 12-15-2004
North Korea warned that it would regard any sanctions imposed on it by Japan as
a declaration of war and would hit back with an "effective physical" response.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041214/wl_asia_afp/nkoreajapansanctions_041214203912

こちらの掲示板繁盛中

105 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/16 18:04:45 ID:hByqwFWW
>>104
Messageが1000以上いってるってのはビックリ

106 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/17 12:05:20 ID:zSe4wain
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140277447/qid%3D1101479564/sr%3D2-1/ref%3Dpd%5Fka%5Fb%5F2%5F1/102-7116798-1271364
"RON" a good read for nonhistorians, February 10, 1998
Reviewer: jcaper@msn.com (Baltimore, Maryland)

While the Kirkus reviewer may overstate "his" case, essentially the review is
on target. Chang's book deserves credit for being an earnest effort to direct
world attention to an overlooked part of collective history. However it
disappoints in its lack of depth and fustrates readers with its stylistic structure.

Perhaps in concession to current opinion that footnotes intimidate non-academic
readers, Chang does not use them. To check sources for basic assertions
within the text one must search the endnotes by page number to match the
statement made with a source citation. Often there are none. This ultimately
undermines the credibility of the entire enterprise.

Chang also repeatedly inserts herself into the context of the massacre by
noting how her interest in the incident triggered important historical action
(the saving of documents etc).

Lacking adequate inclusion of primary material, Chang's style blunts the impact
and intrinsic drama of the event by repeatedly "summing up" events without
providing detail. The result is a story of an American journalist's response to
the discovery of a piece of underexplored history not an exposure of the historical
event itself. Typos abound in this expensive hardback so while I recomend reading
it (a short, interesting read), I would suggest using the library.

107 :枯木:04/12/19 23:05:41 ID:0SW2Eu6a
>>98いまチベットで中国がしていることを見聞きする度に
南京大虐殺で日本軍がしたとされていることとの類似に驚かされる。
君は何人かね?日本軍は南京で1927年12月に一人も殺してないよ
反論できたらしてみてくれ。証拠を挙げてね




108 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/20 00:53:04 ID:7rukf8B6
>>107
いや、98さんは

「中国人は、みずからの行動原理をもとにして南京大虐殺を捏造した。
南京大虐殺のディテールがチベットの件と酷似しているのはそのためだ」

と言いたいんじゃないの。
南京大虐殺で日本軍が「したとされている」こと、とちゃんと書いているし。

109 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/20 02:44:01 ID:5OfRkz2m
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-5845296-6816646?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155

日本軍の南京入りの詳細についてここ一週間ほど連続して
英文で書いていた人の文章が6個ほど消されてます。

その割には jap という言葉を使っている人の文章は残っているんだよね。

110 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/21 14:10:48 ID:ZCFSMcVB
新5星書きこみでつ
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-8727666-2812002?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
Spot Light on Hidden Tragedy, December 20, 2004
"The Rape of Nanking" is a master work, the first book in English to set down the story
of the senseless slaughter and rapine that took place in Nanking in 1937 and 1938.
More than 300,000 civilians were massacred by the Japanese Army. Tens of thousands
of women were subjected to torture and rape in a spree of madness that lasted 7 weeks.
Chang chronicles the Japanese mindset that led to the atrocity, the Chinese Army's
abandonment of Nanking, the suffering and courage of the city's residents and the heroic
efforts of two dozen Europeans and Americans to devise and defend and international
safety zone that saved the lives of a quarter million (!) innocent Chinese. Chief among
these saviors was John Rabe, ironically a German Nazi, who became known as a living
Buddha for his humanitarian work.

Most poignant is the story of what happened after the war, as both Americans and Chinese
helped paper over the massacre in order to defend against a newly aggressive USSR.
Infuriatingly, many Japanese continue to deny that this well-documented event even took
place. Top ranking members of the Japanese War Ministry and royal family were never
called to account for their crimes, including those in Nanking.

I found "The Rape of Nanking" inspiring, in the sense that even in the midst of mindless
evil, good men and women can rise to stand against evil, managing sometimes to carve
tiny victories from a megalith of death and destruction.

111 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/21 14:23:30 ID:edTOVYUm
俺英語話せないから貢献できんけど
みんな頑張って(;´Д`)
応援カキコ

112 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/21 22:42:11 ID:jtMrjtbk
一星だけど日本は謝罪していないそうでつ。#581
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-8727666-2812002?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155

Interesting but excessive exaggeration, December 20, 2004
Reviewer: Junqi Ding
The intent of this book is clear and compelling. The bottom line is, the Empire of
Japan SHOULD HAVE ADMITTED what her did during WWII in China. However,
this book critically lacks credibility of the facts. I have to regret many of the
facts stated in the book are untrue or incorrect from the perspective of the
fact-oriented international populace (e.g., the pictures of Chinese-self-acted
Japanese solders, beheaded Chinese criminals executed by their own government,
and the number of victims of 300,000 despite 10,000-30,000 revealed by the
international investigation body right after the war). It was certainly a tragedy,
but we need the FACTS to consider, not her emotional urban folklore. Iris Chang
makes it a point to manipulate some facts to make effectively and systematically
the entire plot plausible. Japanese government must apologize and Iris Chang must
have written the book, both based exclusively on the HARD FACTS. Both are impostors!

113 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/22 22:35:46 ID:FDvo2THQ
新一星書き込みでつ
History is not polemics - Geraldo does Nanking,, December 21, 2004 #583
Reviewer: jheinin
As a professional historian of East Asia, I appreciate Chang bringing the events
of Japan's invasion of Nanking to a broader audience, but Chang let her personal
bias and her youth/inexperience adversely affect the telling of her tale. The events
are horrific enough that the reader does not need to be hit over the head with
Chang's inflammatory rhetoric. Moreover, this is not a forgotten event--I learned
about it in 10th grade world history in 1967.

Chang's best contribution is bringing to light the diaries of John Rabe, which with
other eye-witness accounts are perfectly valid historical sources. However, Chang's
insertion of herself into the narrative and her inflammatory rhetoric seriously
undermine her book on an important and neglected -- but not unknown -- event.
I am at a loss to understand why this book has been lauded by a number of prominent
historians. Had she been my student (or I her editor), I would have required her to
write with objectivity so the credibility of her account would not be subjected to
the kind of criticism I see in many of these reviews.




114 :日出づる処の名無し:04/12/29 09:25:13 ID:dHHxwqih
再審「南京大虐殺」 世界に訴える日本の冤罪
The Alleged 'Nanking Massacre'  Japan's rebuttal to China's forged claims
竹本忠雄 筑波大学名誉教授、大原康男 國學院大學教授
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/unko/tamezou/nankin/alleged/

↑英語併記されているから 史料等の使用にどうぞ

115 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/01 10:20:39 ID:0QK0vOUX

                        ┌─┐
.                           | .あ |
.                           |..げ..|   ショボーン
                        │ !!.│    (´・ω・`)
                        └─┤   ( ヽ┐U
.                         (`Д´)  ┌◇ヽ◎
                           (\/|┘ ◎
                  アゲルゾゴルァ!! / /
                     ( `Д)丿┌|/◎
                       (\/|┘
                ヒャッホウ!! / /
               ヽ(Д´丿┌|/◎  
                     ( /|┘
               .  / /
                 |/◎
               彡
             彡


  

  //
/  //
/ /
/ /


116 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/06 15:13:48 ID:bnssoJQG
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/104-8907732-4901503?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
新しい三つ星 リビュー
20th century Asian history, December 28, 2004
Reviewer: Matthew Smith (Boston)

This was truly eye-opening b/c of the lack of awareness that this event
ever occured. That is the point and the double-tragedy of what happened.
Much like the Nazi atrocities of WW2, it is hard to believe that man could
act in such a way to others. The book is informative yet somewhat repetitive.
A couple of times I swear I was reading word for word what I had already read.
Otherwise, it was very interesting.

117 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/13 10:24:43 ID:3J90K/GA
>>116
これを書いた人、天然のようだけど
結局こうして中国のプロパガンダとして機能しているんだよね。

> This was truly eye-opening b/c of the lack of awareness that this event
> ever occured.


118 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/13 12:40:37 ID:RQ20+uYw
http://news18.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/news4plus/1100506609/
こっちのスレッドで、「アイリスの自殺は日本右翼の脅迫」と決めつけた崔女史への
反論英文を(あて先もふくめて)考えている者なんですが…皆さんによりよいアイ
ディアや、既出の反論英文への修正・補足などありましたら、ご教授願いたいです。

119 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/15 13:57:10 ID:AQP+sf6J
新五つ星リビュー #586 神道が日本人の悪の根源だそうです
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/102-1615267-4804929?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155

Religion is the Root Cause of the Massacres, January 15, 2005
Reviewer: Chaconnesque "chaconnesque" (Singapore, Singapore Singapore)
A Japanese reviewer had justified the Nanking massacre by referring the Chinese
massacre of the Tibetans. A strange way of justifying indeed. Thus the Jewish treatment
of the Palestinians also justify their prior (worse!) treatment by the Nazis? At any rate,
while I abhor the massacre of the Tibetans which occurred during the cultural revolution,
the Red Guards massacred many people of different ethnicity, including a large majority
of Chinese themselves. It wasn't as racially motivated as the Nanking massacre.

A good point to note that most Japanese who denied the truth of the Nanking massacre
are Shinto believers. Most Buddhist Japanese are able to come to terms with this
horrendous deed of their forefathers, and have participated prominently annually in
commemorative events.

Shinto believers have this problem because the root lies in the fact that the religion
preaches the infallibility of the Japanese race and particularly of the imperial family.
A believer would certainly be unable to accept that their own people could commit such
atrocious crime, and would strenuously, furiously deny it.

120 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/15 13:57:37 ID:AQP+sf6J
Indeed it is this very belief in their infallability that led them progressively into aggressive
behaviour towards their neighbours, whom they view as racially impure and inferior. In this
aspect this is very similar to Nazism, only more muted, and sadly, more enduring.

Incidentally, Nanking was by no means the only massacre though it was the largest by the
Japanese. In Singapore and Malaysia, tens of thousands of Chinese men were murdered
during the nearly 4 years of Japanese occupation. These men were rounded up and brought
in trucks to remote locations, forced to dig trenches and then gunned down by the Japanese
soldiers, who then buried them in these very trenches. Numerous such places have been
recovered. My parents personally know of people whom have been rounded-up and disappeared,
and also of survivors who made it to tell the truth. My university room-mate's family still do
not buy Japanese goods because his maternal grandmother lost all her sons this way.

But the British did not pursue the Japanese for compensation they way they did with the
Germans since we're just colonies, and the succeeding governments needed Japanese investments
so did not see fit to offend. It is now dim memory for most of the young people, but it does
not mean that the massacres did not occur.

121 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/16 05:01:23 ID:6QflQ6uw
:

122 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/16 12:11:24 ID:PPfGyU8z
新四つ星リビュー #587
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/102-1615267-4804929?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
Tragic, January 14, 2005 Reviewer: Clint Mosso (San Jose, CA United States)

I had only heard about Japanese atrocities in China during WWII in general,
yet had never read a detailed account (unlike the massive amounts of material
you are exposed to in school about the Holocaust). The Rape of Nanking taught
me much about the politics, motivations, and tragedies associated with Japan's
occupation of parts of mainland China in the late 30's. While the book is fast
paced, informative, and well written, do prepare yourself to be exposed to
descriptions of the most horrific acts that your imagination can muster.

I felt the book could have been edited down a bit as certain sections get
repetitive, but this is my only complaint about an otherwise amazing book on
a little covered chapter in history. One that everyone should read. Not learning
about The Rape is like being clueless about the Holocaust, and it's truly a tragedy
that this event has been lost on most of the western world. It's fantastic that
Iris Chang has brought it to light, yet tragic that she took her own life last year.
Bottom line, if you can stomach some of the most gut wrenching horrors of
The Rape being described in brutal detail (and some being pictured),
then you owe it to yourself to read this book.

123 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/16 12:21:11 ID:3pksteNU
Amazonいったらほとんどシナの工作カキコ
だと思われる4つ、5つ星しか載ってないじゃん。

124 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/16 13:36:38 ID:slUiHhHD
削除されないうちに保存しる!!
中国の街頭オナーニサービス↓

http://www.flyingchair.net/images/helping_hand1.jpg
http://www.flyingchair.net/images/helping_hand2.jpg
http://www.flyingchair.net/images/helping_hand3.jpg

125 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/17 02:50:56 ID:zBAda+r/
《韓国のカジノで偽1万円札420枚》
 韓国の警察当局は14日、ソウル市内のホテルのカジノで40歳代の
在日韓国人の男性が使った現金のうち、420枚の1万円札が偽札と判明、
捜査を始めたと明らかにした。
 この男性は日本で不動産業などを経営。偽札とは知らなかったと話しているという。
 今回発見された偽札が、日本国内の偽1万円札事件と関係があるかなど
詳しいことは分かっていない。しかし、同事件が発覚して以来、一度に
これほど大量の偽1万円札が見つかったのは初めて。韓国の警察当局は
捜査研究所で偽札を調べる一方で、国際刑事警察機構(ICPO)へ通告、
日本の偽1万円札との関連を捜査している。
 同警察当局によると、男性は11日、カジノでのギャンブルを目的に韓国に入国した。
男性は同日、ホテルのカジノで、所持していた1540万円をチップと交換。
カジノ職員が手触りに違和感を覚えて偽造紙幣の疑いを持ち、銀行に鑑定を依頼、
420枚が偽造紙幣と判明した。(共同)
(01/14 21:41)
http://www.sankei.co.jp/news/050114/kok071.htm
<日経新聞> 
在日韓国人が両替した現金のうち、420枚の1万円札が偽札と分かり、
http://www.nikkei.co.jp/news/main/20050114STXKF061214012005.html
<読売新聞>
カジノで在日韓国人の男性が1540万円を両替しようとしたが、
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/world/news/20050114it12.htm
<毎日新聞>
ソウル市内のカジノで偽1万円札420枚を使おうとした不動産業の在日韓国人の男
http://www.mainichi-msn.co.jp/shakai/jiken/news/20050115k0000m040064000c.html
<朝日新聞>
偽札はすべて、★日本から来た男性観光客★1人が11日、カジノで1540万円をチップに換金した際に交じっていた。
http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0114/027.html
<朝鮮日報>
在日韓国人のチョン某氏
http://japanese.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2005/01/14/20050114000051.html

126 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/17 04:04:56 ID:82giUzk8
275 日出づる処の名無し 05/01/17 02:16:16 ID:zBAda+r/
ロンリープラネット社のサイトから。  抗議先はこちら。http://www.lonelyplanet.com/feedback/
<日本>
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/north_east_asia/japan/
結局、再生エッフェル塔の写真をとるか、室内の海岸でサーフィンするか、禅寺の中で熟考するか、ラブホテルの中でshackingするか…
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/north_east_asia/japan/history.htm
歴史欄:建国が西暦300年、日本人は朝鮮半島から来た。
地図では日本海&東海が併記。

<韓国>
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/north_east_asia/south_korea/
中国が東から、日本が日本から攻めて来ても、韓国は生き残ってきました。
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/north_east_asia/south_korea/history.htm
歴史欄:3万2千年前に定住、紀元前2333年に建国。日本文化の発展に多大な貢献をした。また、日本の蛮行について詳しく解説。
地図はもちろん東海です。

127 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/17 10:49:38 ID:9zUmXGlm
>>123
だれか英語で反論書いてくれよ。
英語出来る人いないの?

128 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/20 02:31:22 ID:YiPFNnjI
 

129 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/21 04:58:20 ID:x5W4TKJE


130 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/22 00:26:15 ID:bJFFZagk
新四つ星リビュー #589
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-8580269-3356601?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
What an amazing young scholar!, January 20, 2005
Reviewer: jen2005 "jen2005" (Texas, USA)
The Nanjing Massacre has been witnessed by hundreds of thousands despite
the clear attempt by Japanese soldiers to kill all those in view. It's sick that
the Japanese are not taught the truth regarding the past. Clearly, young
Japanese today are not at fault at what happened back in World War II, but
we should all recognize our past mistakes. As Chang shrewdly highlights,
Germany is a better country today because they recognized their dark past
and the South are better today because they now recognize that slavery is
unethical and simply disgusting. Shame on those who refuse to admit that the
Nanjing Massacre occurred. I wonder if they even read Chang's book, not to
mention the now many documentaries and texts regarding this subject matter.

----------------------------------------------------
英語で反論できる人、複数募集。

131 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/22 00:27:00 ID:bJFFZagk
>>130
訂正:新五つ星リビュー #589

132 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/24 08:06:13 ID:NAAmQYHi
何で日本側のは消されるわけ?

133 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/27 17:00:41 ID:bNKxMlv4
>>132
おかしいなぁ。

>>130 の #589 だったものが今は #588 になっている。
なにか消されたようだよ。

消されないうちに現在 #587 をこちらに転載しておく。
(後日例文として使えるから)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/104-8873027-6429542?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
Next Fascism Comes with Anti-Fascism Movement?, January 19, 2005
Reviewer: Yamata-no-Orochi

I have never seen a good, solid-based counter-argument to those denial theories
of so-called Rape of Nanking was made not only by ignorant amateur people but
by the supposedly-decent scholars alike.

It is matter of course that they never be able to do so considering the fact that
this story of the Rape of Nanking is mere propaganda. They should well know that
they have no evidence that supports the massacre really happened in Nanking in
December 1937. Because, on the contrary, many circumstantial evidences from
the neutral foreigners in the city, which, most crucially, have been used as the
very evidences for the massacre, point that soon after the capture of Nanking
peace was in fact restored by the Japanese Army and genuine Chinese civilians
(apart from those civilian-disguised Chinese soldiers, of course) gave them
welcome rather eagerly. Anyone can read can see this from contemporary
documents like "The Documents of the Nanking Safety Zone" and letters and
diaries of those foreigners who remained in Nanking at the period in question
which anyone can obtain anytime from Amazon.com book store most of the time.

134 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/27 17:04:28 ID:bNKxMlv4

So, naturally, instead of trying to make a counter-argument on what exactly the
denial theories say, what they always do is to distort and deride those denials
or to make a forced analogy between the Rape of Nanking denials and the Nazi
Holocaust denials so that other uninformed people think that those deniers are
all evil fascists and ultra-nationalists, therefore, they should never be listened to.
They need to keep people out of those good resources because, once people read
those contemporary documents by themselves, they will certainly know what really
happened in Nanking and, more exactly, what really not happened in Nanking.

With those aggressive words, some people really are imbuing people's mind with
false assumptions on those Rape of Nanking denials that can lead to prejudice
to the Japanese culture itself. I cannot help thinking that, although we should be
living in a democratic society in which people should have a right to speak freely,
somehow we are under a covert speech control. It seems that once you are labelled
as an ultra-nationalist or a neo-Nazi, you can never refute anything. I feel as if I am
being told that: the left is right and the right is ALWAYS, PROFOUNDLY and
INDEFINITELY wrong. Does this not sound like fascism/totalism?
Incidentally, Amnesty International Report in 1978 says that in Communist China
at that time history teachers were assigned to the post not by their achievement in
history study but by fine understanding of the ideology of communism. I just wonder
if it is still true to this day.

135 :日出づる処の名無し:05/01/27 17:05:51 ID:bNKxMlv4
(By the way, the reviewer below called chaconnesque"chaconnesque", the Chinese
who were killed in the South East Asian countries in the WW2 by the Japanese Army
were mostly guerrillas in civilian clothes which is supposed to be illegal worldwide
and, therefore, the commanders who ordered the executions of those guerrillas were
acquitted in the war crimes courts by the Allied powers after the war.)


136 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/04 21:49:40 ID:OHwEbjMc
新一星リビュー $589
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-7282591-3138208?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155

Cannibal is Chinese culture., February 3, 2005
Reviewer: pink daruma

I contribute for the first time.
Various informations about Nanking Massacre are flowing, to tell the truth,
I also can't understand which one is the true information.
But, I want to say only one point.
They say, Japanese soldiers ate Chinese's internal organs with pan. It's nonsense story.
Japanese began eating pig or beef about 140 years ago. All samurais were vegetarians.
I swear we don't have that kind of culture. Cannibal is Chinese culture.
You can easily understand if you read Chinese history book. Obviously,
it's a propaganda made by Chinese.
Though there are Japanese slaughter events committed by Chinese, too. \
If those are not seen, it is not impartial.

137 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/04 21:56:20 ID:kYyG4cYw
とらわれた日本兵へ侵略されたチベットとかの人達が
日本軍がおこなった暴行をでっちあげるための裏付け写真のスタッフとして使われた
ってこと ないだろうね。

138 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/04 22:39:57 ID:e0umtT91
>>137
南京の証拠として使う写真は戦後20年ぐらいの時点で
既に出尽くしていないといけないはず。

今後新規に出てくる写真は全て信用できない。

139 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/04 22:50:25 ID:e0umtT91
南京事件「証拠写真」を検証する
http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4794213816/qid%3D1107351340/249-3261283-9156353

「南京事件」には「虐殺派」と呼ばれる人々がいる。旧日本軍が南京で
殺戮、強姦、放火、略奪など悪虐非道の限りを尽くし30万人の中国人を虐殺した、
という説をとるジャーナリストや学者である。「南京大虐殺」が史実として
定着したのは、本多勝一『中国の旅』(朝日新聞社、1972年)、笠原十九司
『南京事件』(岩波新書、1997年)、アイリス・チャン『ザ・レイプ・オブ・南京』
(ペンギン・ブックス、1997年)など、そういう人々の功績といっていい。

一方に、東京裁判、中国共産党、大新聞の「大虐殺」説に疑問を抱く人々もいる。
阿羅健一『「南京事件」日本人48人の証言』(小学館文庫、2001年)は、
その疑念を晴らすために、当時南京にいた日本軍人、外交官、ジャーナリストから
直接証言を求めたものである。ジャーナリストの櫻井よしこは、同書に寄せた
「推薦のことば」で「関係者の体験談を集めた第一級の資料」と評している。
ひるがえって『中国の旅』『ザ・レイプ・オブ・南京』などが証拠としている写真は、
はたして「第一級の資料」であったかどうか。本書の著者、東中野修道たちの
グループ「南京事件研究会写真研究分科会」が、平成14年春から3年間をかけて、
虐殺派の書物に掲載されている写真を検証しようとしたのは、「大虐殺説」に
納得できなかったからだった。

著者たちが見た写真は3万枚を超える。この中から南京事件の証拠とされている
約140枚を選び出し、撮影者、撮影場所と時期、キャプション、出所・提供者など
写真の特性を洗い出しているが、科学的とさえいえる検証作業の結果、
南京大虐殺の「証拠写真」として通用するものは1枚もないことがわかった。

140 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/04 23:32:09 ID:Hni9SeN8
>>127
そう思うんなら、お前がまず英語を学んで、書き込めよ

141 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/05 00:20:33 ID:4r6k7o0l
>>136
うほっ!
強烈なレビューだなw

タイトルからして「人食いは中国文化」かよw

142 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/05 09:21:37 ID:Hv3w6ilM
>>136
もう一押しして、この一文を追加して欲しかった。

If you cannot believe what I am saying,
search google with two keywords "cannibalism china"
you will find plenty of evidence in the internet.

もし信じられないなら cannibalism china と
いう二つのキーワードでググッてみな。
インターネットにたくさんの証拠があるよ。

143 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/09 20:27:06 ID:gVgCwapm
この著者自殺したんだろ。ほんとは、証拠隠滅で殺されたんじゃないの?

144 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/10 04:02:54 ID:nHZe2YuE
>>143
ケンタッキーで調べ物をしていた時何かを発見して以来
情緒不安定だったらしい。

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/11/11/MNGB59PKL01.DTL
"She was doing research recently in Kentucky and ran into some problem,"
he said. "She got really upset, and she flew home." Chang lived in San Jose
with her husband, Brett Douglas.

Ding, who heads the Cupertino-based Global Alliance for Preserving the
History of World War II in Asia, said he did not know what kind of problem
Chang might have encountered or whether it was a factor in her death.


145 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/10 08:43:39 ID:Zxo55Qyz
>>144
中国共産党の捏造を証明するような何かを発見し、
自分が主張してきたことが嘘だとわかり、
今まで信じてきたものがガラガラと崩壊したとか。。。

146 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/10 08:45:43 ID:Zxo55Qyz
新四星リビュー#590
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/102-7501127-3562544?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
Excellent Overview of Neglected Topic, February 9, 2005
Reviewer: James J. Paul (Raleigh, North Carolina USA)

Had this book merely called the attention of Western readers to this neglected
and heartbreaking topic, it would have been a very important work.

But this book is also very concise, superbly structured, and well-written
(if, on rare occasions, a tad overwrought).

It is not the last word on the subject, but it is a very good introduction to it.

147 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/12 19:52:56 ID:QPEMLmgf
「1937年の中国軍による上海での日本人捕虜虐殺事件」 上海において中国兵による日本人や市民虐殺が実行された。

(資料) 
(上海における中国人の日本人捕虜虐殺行為に関するCNNレポート)
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9609/23/rare.photos/index.html

(CNN紙に掲載された虐殺光景)
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9609/23/rare.photos/image1.lg.jpg
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9609/23/rare.photos/image2.lg.jpg

148 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/19 17:14:22 ID:S4XLI8Bo
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-8051233-7937634?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
新5星リビュー
Compelling account of a Culture of Murder, February 16, 2005
Reviewer: Chinaski007 (Portland, Oregon)

In a day and age when Japan's Prime Minister still annually makes pilgrimages to "honor"
Japan's "war heros", books like this provide some insight into the cultural underpinnings
of racism and utter brutality.

Japan's forced enslavement, torture, and rape of Koreans, Chinese, Taiwanese, and others in
WW2 has been well-documented; and yet, curiously, it takes explosive books like this to
bring this documentation out of stale academia and into modern light.

Even today, those who were borne and live in Japan from those Koreans forcibly kidnapped
and raped by Japanese are not Japanese citizens... despite the fact that they are now 3rd
generation Japanese, speak no Korean, and have never been to Korea. As this book amply
demonstrates, Japan breeds into its people a robotic disregard for human life and suffering,
and a racism that, to this day, is remarkably disturbing. In the US, we tend to focus on
occidental sins... it's time we also cast our eyes eastward.

反論募集します

149 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/20 13:48:46 ID:6zL2X4oH
新4星リビュー  反論募集中
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-8051233-7937634?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155

Powerful look at Tragedy & Brutality, February 19, 2005
Reviewer: K.A.Goldberg (Chicago)

This gripping expose' of Japan's brutality in China is not for the faint of heart.
Author Iris Chang used official documents and interviews with aged survivors to
narrate one of the most overlooked chapters of 20th Century genocide.
When Japan's imperial army captured the Chinese city of Nanking in 1937, their
soldiers exacted a blood-thirsty revenge. As this book shows, no Chinese were
exempt from the seven-week (...) of murder and rape that followed. Japanese
soldiers used Chinese prisoners for bayonet practice, shot entire families, and
raped women by the thousands (usually killing their victims afterwards).
Recoiling in horror, a handful of western officials, missionaries, and others
(led ironically by (...) diplomat John Rabe) worked to establish an international
safe zone that saved thousands of Chinese. Still this powerful narrative shows
that Japan's army murdered an estimated 300,000 Chinese citizens in the space
of less than two months.

I recently a television interview where an aged ex-soldier from Japan admitted to
having participated in these brutalities and to having felt no remorse until years later.
Gee. Author Iris Chang (1968-2004) was a talented journalist who unfortunately took
her own life - one wonders if this powerful narrative may have contributed to her burdens.


150 :日出づる処の名無し:05/02/28 04:34:11 ID:fmUJx3N/
新4星リビュー #593  

Forgotten, February 23, 2005 Reviewer: J.D. Nguyen "Jon" (Canada)
I will admit that I am only a Grade 12 student reading this book as part of a English project,
however while reading the reviews of this book on Amazon.com I came across somebody
saying that this is not forgotten history. When I presented my report to a class of average
Canadian high school students many of whom were in my History 12 class were totally
oblivious to such acts of violence and sadistic rape, murder and degredgation of the Chinese.

I believe that however bias Chang's writing maybe at certain points it is only because any
decent human being cannot or would have a hard time writing of such atrocities without
providing a hint of anger and frustration as to the events of Nanking.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS BOOK TO EVERYBODY, it is very much a book that is
important and informative, but at the same time it is written with graphic detail as
the reader is bombarded with constant stories and depictions of rape,murder and mutilation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Canadian high school students many of whom were in my History 12 class were totally
oblivious to such acts of violence and sadistic rape, murder and degredgation of the Chinese.

↑「このような残虐さとサディスティックレイプ、殺人は中国人の犯罪者がやることだということを
自分の高校の生徒はみんな認識していた」だと言うことかな?


151 :日出づる処の名無し:05/03/13 12:11:05 ID:b9XHNVJK
新一つ星リビュー #593 (どこかで一つリビューが削除されている)
Everyone! Please Read "Eyewitnesses to Massacre"!!, March 6, 2005
Reviewer: Yamata-no-Orochi
I have never seen a good, solid-based counter-argument to those denial theories of so-called
Rape of Nanking was made not only by ignorant amateur people but by the supposedly-decent scholars alike.

It is matter of course that they never be able to do so considering the fact that this story of the
Rape of Nanking is mere propaganda. They should well know that they have no evidence that
supports the massacre really happened in Nanking in December 1937. Because, on the contrary,
many circumstantial evidences from the neutral foreigners in the city, which, most crucially, have
been used as the very evidences for the massacre, point that soon after the capture of Nanking
peace was in fact restored by the Japanese Army and genuine Chinese civilians (apart from those
civilian-disguised Chinese soldiers, of course) gave them welcome rather eagerly. Anyone can read
can see this from contemporary documents like "The Documents of the Nanking Safety Zone" and
letters and diaries of those foreigners who remained in Nanking at the period in question which
anyone can obtain anytime from Amazon.com book store most of the time.

152 :日出づる処の名無し:05/03/13 12:17:45 ID:b9XHNVJK
So, naturally, instead of trying to make a counter-argument on what exactly the denial theories say,
what they always do is to distort and deride those denials or to make a forced analogy between the
Rape of Nanking denials and the Nazi Holocaust denials so that other uninformed people think that
those deniers are all evil fascists and ultra-nationalists, therefore, they should never be listened to.
They need to keep people out of those good resources because, once people read those contemporary
documents by themselves, they will certainly know what really happened in Nanking and, more exactly,
what really not happened in Nanking.

With those aggressive words, some people really are imbuing people's mind with false assumptions on those
Rape of Nanking denials that can lead to prejudice to the Japanese culture itself. I cannot help thinking that,
although we should be living in a democratic society in which people should have a right to speak freely,
somehow we are under a covert speech control. It seems that once you are labelled as an ultra-nationalist
or a neo-Nazi, you can never refute anything. I feel as if I am being told that: the left is right and the right is
ALWAYS, PROFOUNDLY and INDEFINITELY wrong. Does this not sound like fascism/totalism?
Incidentally, Amnesty International Report in 1978 says that in Communist China at that time history teachers
were assigned to the post not by their achievement in history study but by fine understanding of the ideology
of communism. I just wonder if it is still true to this day.

(By the way, the Chinese who were killed in the South East Asian countries in the WW2 by the Japanese
Army were mostly guerrillas in civilian clothes which is supposed to be illegal worldwide and, therefore,
the commanders who ordered the executions of those guerrillas were acquitted in the war crimes courts
by the Allied powers after the war.)

153 :日出づる処の名無し:05/03/13 12:29:41 ID:EFHRy3h4
What really happened in Nanking
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/unko/tamezou/nankin/whatreally/

154 :日出づる処の名無し:05/03/13 12:43:20 ID:EFHRy3h4
New Research on the Nanjing Incident(南京事件の新しい研究)
UCLAのページ。、虐殺の定義、意味論を展開している
ttp://www.international.ucla.edu/asia/article.asp?parentid=16772


155 :日出づる処の名無し:05/03/13 20:51:44 ID:79Vt7TvK
わからずやクソリスチャン。


156 :日出づる処の名無し:05/03/17 04:03:56 ID:3ju+S3NY
新四星リビュー #593
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-3449031-9789664?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
STUNNING, March 13, 2005
It is a very stunning book and stomach churning in which Iris Chang tells the story of
many, in a respective manner dividing the stories into three seperate sections, Japanese,
Chinese witnesses, and Foreigners. In The Rape of Nanking, she briefly describes the
tragedy of many Chinese people who endured rape, murder, and cruel treatment from
Japanese soldiers. Although many Japanese people deny the fact that this ever
happened, this book really shows the true colors of this tragedy that will never be forgotten.


157 :日出づる処の名無し:05/03/17 04:05:25 ID:3ju+S3NY
新五星リビュー #594
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-3449031-9789664?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
Awareness and Forgetfulness in History, March 13, 2005
Reviewer: R. DelParto (Virginia Beach, VA USA)

Iris Chang's The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II examines one of
history's atrocities under the microscope. By looking at the cover of the book, one may not
be able to decipher what the cover depicts if one hasn't studied or read about the Chinese
holocaust that occurred before World War II was officially declared in 1939. One can only
think that the picture depicts dead fish along the ground. However, that is not the case, and
it is the gruesome reality of what can happen in times of conflict. The Japanese proceeded
in creating havoc in Manchuria in December 1937 in order to attain territorial and imperialistic
power over the Chinese.

158 :日出づる処の名無し:05/03/17 04:37:00 ID:3ju+S3NY
Chang's well-documented narrative of the Rape of Nanking is a powerful book that can either
move you or make you think about history that has already passed. The Rape of Nanking is
one of those events in history that has been debated and challenged by Japanese historians
in telling the truth about Nanking by non-Japanese researchers or even those who actually
lived through the experience. Through Chang's narrative, she pleads to her readers that this
event indeed happened and revisionists working to debunk the facts are working on a thin
red line when they taint history in order to paint a "pretty" picture of their own history.
History is not complete unless the entire big picture is presented.

The Rape of Nanking is indeed another piece of the puzzle in telling the history of World War II.
As more evidence is presented to what occurred before Pearl Harbor, there will be a better
understanding to what eventually occurred on August 9, 1945 and after. Those who read the
book should be forewarned of the graphic narrative as well as the photographs. Nonetheless,
this is a highly recommended book.

159 :日出づる処の名無し:05/03/17 09:16:07 ID:NXg4p+5Z
俺、英語できないからみんな頑張ってね

160 :日出づる処の名無し:05/03/17 20:52:15 ID:4pf9Y5un
Iris Chang is history creator.
She is a stubboun woman and she has selfish character.
She always say hysterically and believe only fabricated history.


161 :日出づる処の名無し:05/03/20 21:07:51 ID:U+BFpY8k
She is connected with the China of Communist Party.
People's Republic of China is the most violative country in the world.
This country is always violates human rights and has been bitterly criticised by Internationai Society.





162 :日出づる処の名無し:2005/03/27(日) 06:18:33 ID:qBSDPwVv
新一つ星リビュー #595
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-1317771-8671829?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
Media of Propaganda, March 26, 2005, Reviewer: Lawrence (Canada)

It's so amazing that many reviewers of this book accept everything they read in the book as truth.
Then, when you realize the so many of the reviewers are also of Chinese origin or descendants,
it's no surprise. The history in general sometimes will not reveal a full true story of any events
for a long time; 10, 30, 50, 100 years or even centuries. Recently, there was a finding that, out of
the Soviet Communist Archived documents, the Soviet had issued an order to Mao Zedong to
instigate the Japanese army to invade and break out a war against China in order to rear-guard
the soviet which was at war against German and was worried about another front in Asia against
Japan. This is quite contrary to the general notion that Japan invaded China out of territorial
aggression. Those reviewers of this book whose one of the favourite comments is 'Well documented'
or 'Well researched' really makes me wonder what they mean by those comments or how they
figured whether or not the author has, indeed, conducted good fact findings and researches.
When it comes to the history books, one must counter balance by reading the both sides of its
story in question if there are more than one party involved in the event. (以下省略)

一番最後にこちらのサイトが紹介されてます。
history.gr.jp/nanking/index2.html

163 :日出づる処の名無し:2005/03/31(木) 05:35:06 ID:ceW1UOil
新4つ星リビュー #597
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/104-1401760-2089554?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
SAD, March 29, 2005 Yuan Geng "Maybe_tomm" (Ann Arbor, MI) - See all my reviews

I am DEEPLY embarassed by some of the Japanese and Chinese reviewers who basically blast at
each other. The Japanese who flat out deny the existence of this atrocity are ridiculous beyond words.
The Chinese who curse at the Japanese with horrible names and some even swore on having a
"Rape of Tokyo" is also just embarassing!

As a Chinese I've always been interested in the Japanese language, culture, and food for pure
enjoyment. I believe the Japanese have a very interesting and unique societal view on their own
race and their own lifestyle, they have very disciplined views, for good and for bad. I have many
Japanese friends and feel that there are always good and bad people everywhere.

There are many genocides that occurred around the world throughout ages, the rape of Nanjing,
Turkish slaughter of Armenians, slaughter of Muslims in the Balkans, and the current genocide
that is OCCURING right now in Sudan and Rhwanda are, in a sense, all the same. They are all
denounced, and even the ones occuring right now, we're all ignoring them. Out of the hundreds of
genocides and mass/gruesome murders that happened in the world, only the holocause is recognized.




164 :日出づる処の名無し:2005/03/31(木) 05:36:54 ID:ceW1UOil
War is a dirty and dark magical power that sucks out people's souls and makes us inhumane and
out of our minds. When a country is in war, its soldiers are fooled by the leader into committing
acts they never imagine they could commit. When a city is invaded, it is almost always the case
that inhumane slaughterings will occur. I am not here to excuse the Japanese but to say that many
atrocious events happened and the Japanese invasion of China is one in thousands.

I feel horrible that the Japanese is denying the rape of Nanjing. My grandmother's brothers and sisters
and their families were burned alive by the Japanese while herself narrowly escaped, I grew up listening
to her tales, and to hear so many people on this page denying MY FAMILY's death is very painful, and
it makes me very, very angry.

Frankly, after reading the Rape of Nanking I dropped studying Japanese at my college, because I simply
cannot get myself to come to terms with not this atrocity, but the simple denial of this atrocity by the
culture I am interested in.

I'd say that both Chinese and Japanese are deeply racist toward each other, while the Chinese claim
that they have a reason to hate the Japanese for the crimes they've done, the Japanese looks down
upon the Chinese as if we're inferior to them. In both cases, it is not justified.

I hope there are people (both Japanese and Chinese) out there who are a little more civilized than
some of the people on this web, to not look past our past, but to recognize our past, accept our past,
and move beyond are past knowing that war is unfortunate, it brings out the worst in people, and to move on.

It is stupid to think that two great Asian countries cannot work together and to let the US take advantage
of hatred.

165 :日出づる処の名無し:2005/03/31(木) 05:50:20 ID:ceW1UOil
新一つ星リビュー #598 (日本人の反論)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/104-1401760-2089554?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
The truth is...., March 29, 2005, Reviewer: Crazy Horse - See all my reviews
I am Japanese, and I strongly believe that the so-called Rape of Nanking never happened
just because there are no good, solid evidences which substantiate the accusation.

If you don't believe me, that's fine, but please read "Eyewitnesses to Massacre" edited
by proper Chinese scholar Zhang Kaiyuan. You can see those "objective" foreigners of the
Nanking Safety Zone International Committee and other American missionaries, who stayed
in Nanking at the very moment of the Japanese capture and occupation of Nanking
December 1937 to spring of 1938, said themselves clearly that they saw NO actual killings
(outside of the legitimate executions) by themselves at all!

They said that they believe all of those atrocities of Japanese Army that they heard from
their Chinese friends were true, but also said that they had not verified them at all.
(以下省略)

166 :日出づる処の名無し:皇紀2665年,2005/04/03(日) 14:11:07 ID:VWAKqGzv
新5つ星リビュー #598
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/104-5675284-3191966?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
People, it's meaningless to argue about numbers!, April 2, 2005,
Reviewer: "aquaexecution" (Vancouver, Canada) - See all my reviews

Does it really matter if the number of Chinese civilians that are killed is 50,000 or 500,000?
An atrocity is an atrocity, regardless of the number! Many innocent civilians are mass
murdered and that is the fact! Smaller number doesn't automatically make the massacre
a "small thing". Smaller number doesn't mean Japanese government is not guilty about
the massacre. The smaller number doesn't mean Japanese government don't need to
apologize!!!

The number of Jews that are killed in the concentration camps also varies,
how come I don't see anyone arguing about the numbers? The Japanese government
should stop trying to find excuses and face the true history! People's voice cannot
be wrong! Where do you think those victims that accuses Japanese government come
from? Victims cannot be fabricated. It doesn't really matter if China is under communism
or not. Even if China is a democratic country, Chinese people will still remember the
atrocities the Japanese had done to them!

167 :日出づる処の名無し:2005/04/05(火) 23:41:10 ID:ups1wwE2
新三つ星リビュー#599
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0140277447/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-4013444-7503855?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155

I have Japanese friends and Chinese friends and they are all very nice people
until you start talking about the Rape of Nanking.

Basically, the Chinese go ballistic, the Japanese get miserable. The Chinese utterly
insist that EVERY Japanese is a "war atrocity denier" and God help the guy who says
otherwise. The Japanese basically regret Nanking as a big mistake, but tend to think
they are being ostracized for something they are not responsible for.

Neither side is entirely right. On one hand, there are plenty of Japanese who are indignant
that other Japanese people are trying to forget the Rape of Nanking. In fact, I have met
more such Japanese than otherwise. On the other hand, Japanese people were not informed
about the Rape of Nanking until well after the war, but they have to be accountable for
the government they supported, even if it is about an event that happened long before they
were born. (In the same way that our grandchildren will be held accountable for the actions
of George W. Bush later on in history when the truth finally comes to light.)

Iris Chiang's book is not the best on the subject. It is just too sensationalistic and indignant.
For an even-handed tretise on wartime Japan, I suggest you read "The Japanese
Wartime Empire, 1931-1945" by Peter Duus.
---------------------------------------
この話になると中国人は怒り狂い、日本人は惨めに。
惨めになる日本人はよく知らないからだよね。教育が悪い。

しかしこれを書いた人は従軍慰安婦のこともよく勉強しているよ。
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AZGFH05BIP74E/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-4013444-7503855?%5Fencoding=UTF8
いわゆる従軍慰安婦は売春婦だったと書いている。

168 :日出づる処の名無し:2005/04/06(水) 15:16:07 ID:H5D8PqPH
こんなサイトを見つけた

米国大学で、南鮮や支那の歴史捏造にたった一人で立ち向かう日本人留学生
http://usam.blogtribe.org/entry-3ed13d8da53c34db25887aced6dcddcc.html

169 :日出づる処の名無し:2005/04/06(水) 15:17:44 ID:8N+VBkF8
おい、おまいらも思ってないか?歴史歪曲とかほざいて日本にたかり、海外
まで捏造の輪を広げようとしてる(輪は友達の輪だけで十分だ!)中韓を何とかした
いと。実際2ちゃんには戦っている香具師がたくさんいる。英語で海外のやつ
らと戦ってる香具師。資料を探してくれる香具師。すげぇうまくまとめサイトを作ってくれる香具師。みな
頑張ってる。これでみなが協力して巨大なHPを作って正々堂々日本が正しいことを世界に主
張できたらと思うんだが……。漏れは英語力→そんなに無い 理論的思考力→ない HPづく
り→詳しくない 知識→そんなに無い ……とこんなにだめ(orz)だがでももうが
まんができない。正直いろんなとこに書き込んでスルーされてる。でもとりあえず書き込みを続ける。
せいいっぱいやりませんか?うざかったらスマソ。でも同調してくれる香具師はこれをコピペしていろ
んなとこに貼って欲しい。頼む。南京大虐殺も従軍慰安婦も、海外での扱いは酷いぞ。
かなり中韓にみな毒されてる。漏れたちみんなで立ち上がれないかな? 

170 :日出づる処の名無し:2005/04/06(水) 15:40:19 ID:Y45ootz8
このサイト、マジ強烈です。*グロ注意
どなたか翻訳して海外に紹介して下さい。

ttp://www.tcnweb.ne.jp/~perfect/china.htm


171 :日出づる処の名無し:2005/04/06(水) 15:43:23 ID:9tLf3tfP
 

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